2024/25 Squad and Transfers

[gmfc23]

3 minutes ago, Cet Homme Charmant said:

Do yourself a wee favour and research the difference between an an opinion and a fact. If science was based on opinion we'd all be fucked. 

Yeah Einstein, but none of that proves we have the lowest budget in the league, which is what we're discussing. Try to keep up, eh. 

Just accept the budgets pish then n let it fkn go. 

[Cet Homme Charmant]

1 minute ago, gmfc23 said:

Just accept the budgets pish then n let it fkn go. 

It's all relative. Compared to Real Madrid, aye, it's undoubtedly pish. But compared to Hamilton Accies for example, which is obviously far more relevant, I'm not so sure. But I'm prepared to be convinced otherwise if someone can produce factual evidence of our comparative budgets.

[Chicken_Soup]

41 minutes ago, Cet Homme Charmant said:

I'm not the one claiming unsubstantiated statements are 'fact' mate, so you're the one who's actually clutching at straws.

Hearsay does not become a fact without actual real evidence to support it. I know Dougie said that we had the lowest budget in the league last season, but that in itself does not make it a fact. How could he possibly have known the budget of all the other clubs to be able to be able to make that statement? I can totally understand why he did say that, to perhaps pressurise the board to giving him more budget, and/or to reduce his culpability should things have gone tits up. But that doesn't mean it's true.

What makes you so sure that we don’t? It’s hard to think of many teams, if any, who are likely to have had a smaller budget. Seems an odd thing to stand so strongly against, without any real evidence. 

[TONofmemories]

11 minutes ago, Cet Homme Charmant said:

It's all relative. Compared to Real Madrid, aye, it's undoubtedly pish. But compared to Hamilton Accies for example, which is obviously far more relevant, I'm not so sure. But I'm prepared to be convinced otherwise if someone can produce factual evidence of our comparative budgets.

A clever hill to die on, given that info would be private. 

We're of course speculating based on what officials within the club have said and there's really no reason not to believe that. 

I'm sure someone like TRMP would be able to dig through published accounts and see (if avaliable) football expenditure, or whatever on the accounts relate to players wages. 

[Cet Homme Charmant]

Just now, TONofmemories said:

We're of course speculating based on what officials within the club have said and there's really no reason not to believe that. 

I cannot recall any 'official within the club' other than Dougie claim we had the lowest budget in the league. However, if I'm wrong and there were others, please enlighten me.

But if it was only Dougie who claimed that, then I understand why he did for the reasons already given. But I'd be surprised if he had knowledge of every other club's budget to be able to make that as a statement of fact.

[Cet Homme Charmant]

13 minutes ago, TONofmemories said:

A clever hill to die on, given that info would be private. 

The mere fact that you've conceded that information is private has blown out the water your statement of fact that we had/have the lowest budget in the league. 

[TRVMP]

27 minutes ago, TONofmemories said:

A clever hill to die on, given that info would be private. 

We're of course speculating based on what officials within the club have said and there's really no reason not to believe that. 

I'm sure someone like TRMP would be able to dig through published accounts and see (if avaliable) football expenditure, or whatever on the accounts relate to players wages. 

The League publishes nothing useful so it'd just be each club's accounts, and it'd take knowledge of what else they are spending on. Once upon a time I followed the Scottish game closely enough that I'd know that, but I no longer do, so I'd defer to someone else. 

[Cet Homme Charmant]

FWIW, I don't think it's outwith the bounds of possibility we actually do have the lowest budget in the league this season. For that dubious honour, I think it will be a four way battle between us, Livingston, Airdrie and Hamilton (and perhaps also Ayr if they've already spunked away a large proportion of their budget on Oakley).

 

Edited May 25 by Cet Homme Charmant

[TONofmemories]

16 minutes ago, Cet Homme Charmant said:

FWIW, I don't think it's outwith the bounds of possibility we actually do have the lowest budget in the league this season. For that dubious honour, I think it will be a four way battle between us, Livingston, Airdrie and Hamilton (and perhaps also Ayr if they've already spunked away a large proportion of their budget on Oakley).

 

This is absolute cloud cuckoo stuff

[TRVMP]

4 hours ago, Cet Homme Charmant said:

FWIW, I don't think it's outwith the bounds of possibility we actually do have the lowest budget in the league this season. For that dubious honour, I think it will be a four way battle between us, Livingston, Airdrie and Hamilton (and perhaps also Ayr if they've already spunked away a large proportion of their budget on Oakley).

 

So Ayr have a smaller budget if you don't include the budget that they're using to sign players we can't afford? 

[Cet Homme Charmant]

1 hour ago, TRVMP said:

So Ayr have a smaller budget if you don't include the budget that they're using to sign players we can't afford? 

Straw man argument alert! You've not done that for a while, nice to see the old Nacho back.  Of course that's not what I said, but I'm sure you know that and you're just being cheeky.  

The fact that Ayr offered Oakley more than we did is not proof in itself that they have a bigger budget. It could also be that Brown simply valued him more than Dougie did, and was willing to spend a larger proportion of his budget on him.

I'd guess Ayr's income from season tickets, gate money, and other revenue streams, is broadly similar to ours. Someone mentioned they also have a wealthy benefactor bankrolling them, but we also have Dalrada chucking in a few bob and had additional income from the trip to Ibrox and a decent Scottish cup run. So I've got absolutely no idea how Ayr's overall budget compares to ours, and how much of it has gone on Oakley. But nobody else has either, that's my whole point. I'm not the one claiming speculation as fact. 

 

 

Edited May 25 by Cet Homme Charmant

[Cet Homme Charmant]

4 hours ago, TONofmemories said:

This is absolute cloud cuckoo stuff

Yeah, coming from a guy who claims speculation as fact, that opinion can safely be disregarded.

I'm still waiting on you listing all the other 'officials within club' that publicly announced to the world we have the lowest budget in the league. Just whenever you're ready.

[Cet Homme Charmant]

6 hours ago, Chicken_Soup said:

What makes you so sure that we don’t? It’s hard to think of many teams, if any, who are likely to have had a smaller budget. Seems an odd thing to stand so strongly against, without any real evidence. 

I think you're getting mixed up, I'm not claiming anything as fact without evidence. I'm doing exactly the opposite.

Dougie made a statement that we had the lowest budget in the league, without any evidence to support it. Unless you believe all managers in the league disclose to each other in the summer what their budget is, there's no way Dougie could know that for sure. I can understand why Dougie might have claimed it because for several obvious reasons that narrative suits him, but it still doesn't necessarily mean it's true. 

[vikingTON]

2 hours ago, Cet Homme Charmant said:

I'd guess Ayr's income from season tickets, gate money, and other revenue streams, is broadly similar to ours. Someone mentioned they also have a wealthy benefactor bankrolling them, but we also have Dalrada chucking in a few bob and had additional income from the trip to Ibrox and a decent Scottish cup run. So I've got absolutely no idea how Ayr's overall budget compares to ours, and how much of it has gone on Oakley. 

Ayr don't need to break even currently; we do. It's clear as day that their budget is and has been significantly larger than ours since at least Hopkin took up the management post (lol) there. It's just a bad example to use.

On the other hand, the idea that we're automatically going to be beneath Airdrie and Livingston,  who are currently burning money on a protracted ownership saga, is also not supported by firm evidence or indeed basic logic/reason. 

And of course, just having a bigger budget to throw around hasn't stopped the likes of Falkirk and others from wasting it on absolute dog shite players and getting relegated as a result. 

It certainly looks more difficult this coming season to make sustained forward progress - our on paper increase in the budget is probably cancelled out by the relative increase in competition at our level and in our geographic region (excluding Inverness' laughable move too). But that sense of missed opportunity last season in league terms is partly down to recently players either not being fit or not turning up in terms of performance levels after the Motherwell cup game. They are not irreplaceable. 

Edited May 25 by vikingTON

[Mr.Blue]

I think we need to be realistic. We do have one of the lowest budgets in the league. Dougie has worked wonders in his time here with the resources at his disposal and I trust that he will do so again. Of the players that's left I wouldn't be surprised if Muirhead knew for a while that he was leaving. Largely down to his relationship with sections of the fanbase. Oakley and Crawford are the 2 I'd have loved to have kept but have chosen to move on for more money which is fair enough. The only other one I'm really keen to keep is strapp but looks like he's off as well. 

We need to remember what Dougie has done in previous transfer windows and how he's brought players in who were out of form, struggling etc and got a tune out of them. We are still in May and we have plenty of time to get players in. No doubt there will be decisions that raa few eyebrows which happens at every club but I'm happy to wait and see how it all pans out.

 

disclaimer....If we are in a similar position come the start of the league Cup then I'll delete this post and ignore all knowledge of it lol

 

[Jamie_M]

8 hours ago, Cet Homme Charmant said:

FWIW, I don't think it's outwith the bounds of possibility we actually do have the lowest budget in the league this season. For that dubious honour, I think it will be a four way battle between us, Livingston, Airdrie and Hamilton (and perhaps also Ayr if they've already spunked away a large proportion of their budget on Oakley).

 

There's not a single chance Livi are on that list.

And the fact you have them on there - is it because you are unconditionally accepting the unverified declarations from their manager but not ours?

Edited May 25 by Jamie_M

[dunning1874]

On 5/25/2024 at 1:23 AM, Cet Homme Charmant said:

FWIW, I don't think it's outwith the bounds of possibility we actually do have the lowest budget in the league this season. For that dubious honour, I think it will be a four way battle between us, Livingston, Airdrie and Hamilton (and perhaps also Ayr if they've already spunked away a large proportion of their budget on Oakley).

 

Livingston have the parachute payment and Martindale has openly said they'll have a "top four budget" (whether that budget survives their impending court cases is another matter). Hamilton again have a private owner willing to subsidise losses.

None of us are ever going to know exact figures of budgets at each club, but there's a point where you can take all the information in the public domain and make realistic educated guesses, and doing so allows you to see that the only possible candidates for having a smaller budget are Airdrie and at a significant push Hamilton, with any other conclusion being delusion.

It's been stated publicly by Falkirk that they're going to budget 400K losses in perpetuity as long as they're outside the top flight despite being partly fan owned and having an average attendance over 4K. It's also been stated publicly by board members of The Jags Foundation (Partick's MCT equivalent) that despite reducing their budget from 22/23, they still budgeted a six-figure loss this season, despite being fan owned and having an average attendance of 3.5K.

Every other club has a private owner who are, for however long, willing to support six figure losses. Dunfermline are another club with more than double our average attendance, whose owners supported a seven figure loss in 22/23 to get out of League One. Raith have had a huge influx of 'conservatory' money from the same 'businesspeople' who bankrolled Kelty to League One before deciding they'd reached their ceiling, and that was reflected in their recruitment last summer with the winning team on the park then seeing their attendances surge.

Then you come to the clubs whose attendances are around the same level or smaller than ours. Livingston as mentioned have the parachute payment, and are clearly outspending us for players as proven by Muirhead going there. Ayr's private owner is wiling to plough money in and they're clearly outspending us for players as proven by Oakley going there, with journalists willing to state as fact that their offer was a 50% increase on ours. They have been outspending us for several years as per McAdams, McGinty, Fjortoft and Salkeld making that move as well. That their private owner actually has a modicum of sense unlike the Raes and is also spending on infrastructure around the stadium that could generate revenue is to his credit and could see them move ahead of us in commercial income in future, but it's clear that they were already comfortably outspending us on the first team budget regardless.

Queen's Park are rolling in Lord Haughey's money and have been spending astronomical sums since they were in League Two. Even before our move to fan ownership, Bob McHugh and Peter Grant left us to drop two divisions to them because they got enough of a wage increase to make it worth their while. In the time since their budget has only grown, with them regularly beating other Championship clubs to players who are being chased by half the division like Paton and Savoury.

Hamilton were taken over last summer and have spent to get out of League One, there's little reason to doubt they'll continue to do so but we at least don't have the same obvious evidence of their budget dwarfing ours that we have with everyone else.

That only leaves Airdrie, which considering they were 4th and we were 5th is enough proof that the budget doesn't guarantee a relegation battle, but it's clearly the reality that we're a long way off other clubs financially and we need excellent recruitment to compete. The squads that have delivered two consecutive 5th placed finishes have contained Baird (Ayr reject), Oakley (Inverness reject), Gillespie & Quitongo (Queen's Park rejects), Crawford (Partick reject who was clubless in August), Wilson & Ambrose (Dunfermline rejects). We just need to trust Imrie to find bargains of that calibre again among players not wanted by other Championship clubs rather than the Steven Boyd level of reject.

[Jamie_M]

9 minutes ago, dunning1874 said:

Livingston have the parachute payment 

 

Added to the £1.5m prize money for finishing bottom of the Premiership (4.5 X what we get for our league finish) and the £1m Uefa solidarity payment.

[TopCat]

I don't have any great concerns that we're in a similar situation to Rae's big cutback after the 2nd place finish left him scunnered*. At least 7 or 8 clubs will undoubtedly have bigger budgets, but I also don't think they're likely to generate significantly better players with them (see Dunning's references to Ayr's various diddy journeymen as well as their current squad).

The big challenge for Imrie this season is is that he's going to be operating in a more competitive central belt market and that he needs to find ~ 10 players (5 starters) from the rough diamond category we normally draw from. Even with a generous hit rate of say 70%, carrying 3 complete duds like Boyd in a 20-man squad could easily land us in bother.

*note on the limitations of sugar daddy underwriting of club debt - you're also beholden to their whims. Rae caused that abysmal season and we'd likely have hit administration within a year if MCT hadn't gotten off the ground. This situation will likely happen to some of the clubs currently chucking money down a big hole.

[Jamie_M]

10 hours ago, Cet Homme Charmant said:

(and perhaps also Ayr if they've already spunked away a large proportion of their budget on Oakley).

 

Well most Ayr fans seemed to think that signing Oakley meant losing Dowds. But no. They have just announced him on a pre-contract also.