Hopkin

[TheGoon]

I cut that post a wee bit short as I wanted to watch Question Time, however I came back online to edit and finish it then saw this.

 

Since you are a young guy, possibly in your late teens, I don't think you'll have seen the Celtic vs Barcelona game from 2004 where a young 19 year old absolutely bossed the defence in the Nou Camp against Ronaldinho, Iniesta, Luis Enrique etc. In what can only be described as easily one of the greatest European performances in the clubs history.

 

John Kennedy was more than just a 'decent centre half' he was the greatest Scottish player of that era and it was a bloody sin what happened to him. In comparison, Rio Ferdinand became the world's most expensive defender around a season earlier for £30m - John Kennedy easily had the potential to go for so much more.

Older than that and have seen that game, he was very good in it but you can’t really call him a legend. You can in the same way Tony Watt will always be a Celtic “legend” but in a completely different way to the likes of Auld, Larsson whatever.

[capitanus]

Older than that and have seen that game, he was very good in it but you can’t really call him a legend. You can in the same way Tony Watt will always be a Celtic “legend” but in a completely different way to the likes of Auld, Larsson whatever.

Okay, pray tell me why he isn't a Celtic 'legend' ?

 

I've seen John Collins being described as a 'Legend' for Celtic despite achieving next to fuck all for them, if he is, then he is.

[TheGoon]

Okay, pray tell me why he isn't a Celtic 'legend' ?

 

I've seen John Collins being described as a 'Legend' for Celtic despite achieving next to **** all for them, if he is, then he is.

Collins was still a very good player for them though and played 250 odd games. I don’t really know what Kennedy has done to achieve legendary status. Shitter what happened to him but I don’t think it changes much. If he’s a “legend” there, Gavin Gunning is a “legend” here.

[Toby]

Collins was still a very good player for them though and played 250 odd games. I don’t really know what Kennedy has done to achieve legendary status. s***ter what happened to him but I don’t think it changes much. If he’s a “legend” there, Gavin Gunning is a “legend” here.

I’ve got no issues with that motion.

[capitanus]

Collins was still a very good player for them though and played 250 odd games. I don’t really know what Kennedy has done to achieve legendary status. s***ter what happened to him but I don’t think it changes much. If he’s a “legend” there, Gavin Gunning is a “legend” here.

Collins was a decent player for them in a very poor era for them; in comparison the Celtic team of that era were in a worse state than what the current Rangers side were, despite millions being spent on them throughout that time.

 

The bits in bold, you've just lost your own argument there - what did he do to merit that accolade? He was a very good player whom, over a short period of time established himself as one of the greatest players in the clubs history with superb performances in both Domestic and European competition. After only 28 matches he was given a call-up to the full Scotland squad, when tragedy struck. A sad end to a career full of promise, but he achieved more in his 26 games than others did throughout their careers.

 

As for Gavin Gunning, in a short space of time he became a firm fans favourite. Surely that nullifies your point.

[TheGoon]

My point was he’s seen as a fan favourite by most, not a legend, a bit like Kennedy. Fully aware it’s different but it was the first example that sprang to mind. Kennedy could’ve been a genuine top player if that injury never happened, I don’t doubt that, but personally I think legend is a stretch, and ties into the ambulance chasing culture at Celtic VT was on about. Each to their own however.

[TheGoon]

I’ve got no issues with that motion.

Aye I’d happily see a statue of him outside Cappielow, preferably one booting Clydeview up the arse.

[Toby]

Aye I’d happily see a statue of him outside Cappielow, preferably one booting Clydeview up the arse.

Nah, snapping his cruciate.

[capitanus]

My point was he’s seen as a fan favourite by most, not a legend, a bit like Kennedy. Fully aware it’s different but it was the first example that sprang to mind. Kennedy could’ve been a genuine top player if that injury never happened, I don’t doubt that, but personally I think legend is a stretch, and ties into the ambulance chasing culture at Celtic VT was on about. Each to their own however.

No, Kennedy WAS a top player. Not many British players have had Luis Enrique in their back pocket. He did.

 

As for VT, he needs to get a better tribute act than you. Youre crap at it.

 

Thanks for playing, Champ.

[TheGoon]

No, Kennedy WAS a top player. Not many British players have had Luis Enrique in their back pocket. He did.

 

As for VT, he needs to get a better tribute act than you. Youre crap at it.

 

Thanks for playing, Champ.

Efe Ambrose and Kelvin Wilson kept out Messi and co a few years ago, it happens. Least this isn’t quite “Kenny McDowall is the most underrated manager in the history of professional football” levels of strange.

[capitanus]

Efe Ambrose is a Morton legend though.

 

Also, who said that about Kenny McDowall? Certainly not me.

[SramTon]

I remember the Record once using the phrase "Celtic pin-up Roy Aitken".

 

If Roy Aitken can be a pin-up, John Kennedy can be a legend.

[vikingTON]

I'm not against Brian Wake nor have I ever been. In fact, quite the opposite.

If you're pro Kenny McDowall and a bunch of other goons getting the job then you are de facto against Wake. And can get in the sea accordingly.

 

Is the number of games played ever a pre-requisite of who is/isn't a football clubs legend? Does a player need to play 200+ games for a club before such an honour can be bestowed upon him? In comparison, Derek Collins is often said to be a 'Morton Legend' however in many of his 571 games he was a very average-at-best player; whilst Eric Cantona can easily be considered a Leeds United Legend whilst only playing in 28 games for the club.

 

 

It seems to be a pre-requisite to a certain vintage of Morton fans, when they're having a tantrum about the fact that Wake is a Morton legend while Dunga McClung, their favourite back-up left-back throughout the 1990s, is not. See the strop below:

 

 

I thought the “bring him home” stuff was Gunning. Does it actually refer to anyone who has worn the hoops for any duration?

 

How many more names before we get to the likes of Andy Brownrigg?

 

Regardless of how highly you personally rated him, John Kennedy i) doesn't fall into the bracket of a Celtic legend from that period and ii) obvious 'Celtic legends' wouldn't walk into that management post at the moment anyway. After getting his Swedish team relegated and being on the receiving end of a magnificent hounding from their fans, even Larsson would probably be looked at sideways as an applicant - at least until they need to throw a bone to their vile fanbase. That doesn't look too likely soon though and there's no credible chance of Kennedy getting the job from within. If he wants a career in management, he'll have to start somewhere else then. 

 

It's not the gamble that I'd take, but the chance to gain access to a raft of loanees would be a major advantage from the club's perspective. A manager with those sort of close contacts could give their squad an edge in terms of quality. 

[vikingTON]

Meanwhile teams with much smaller budgets have passed us on the way up and managed to compete in the top flight when they got there. 

 

Which teams had much smaller budgets that have managed to win promotion and compete in the top flight? Hamilton, whose owner built up £2 million of soft loans to the club by the end of the 2000s? Ross County with weirdo bumpkin 'Uncle Roy' McGregor pulling the strings? Looks like you're already down to your tired old trope about Allan Moore getting the biggest budget in human history in 12-13 and 'only' finishing second behind plucky, penniless upstarts Partick Thistle to make this argument work. 

[cmdc]

Which teams had much smaller budgets that have managed to win promotion and compete in the top flight? Hamilton, whose owner built up £2 million of soft loans to the club by the end of the 2000s? Ross County with weirdo bumpkin 'Uncle Roy' McGregor pulling the strings? Looks like you're already down to your tired old trope about Allan Moore getting the biggest budget in human history in 12-13 and 'only' finishing second behind plucky, penniless upstarts Partick Thistle to make this argument work.

St Johnstone had a smaller budget than Irons, who finished 6th. Thistle had a smaller budget than Moore. Both of those sides have - until this season - been able to compete after winning promotion. We don’t need to throw money we don’t have at promotion - and we shouldn’t throw money we don’t have at it - we need to make better use of what we do have.

[LinwoodTON]

St Johnstone had a smaller budget than Irons, who finished 6th. Thistle had a smaller budget than Moore. Both of those sides have - until this season - been able to compete after winning promotion. We don’t need to throw money we don’t have at promotion - and we shouldn’t throw money we don’t have at it - we need to make better use of what we do have.

We?

[EanieMeany]

St Johnstone had a smaller budget than Irons, who finished 6th. Thistle had a smaller budget than Moore. Both of those sides have - until this season - been able to compete after winning promotion. We don’t need to throw money we don’t have at promotion - and we shouldn’t throw money we don’t have at it - we need to make better use of what we do have.

 

I don't really buy into this "poor wee Morton" routine either. A PSG budget it may not be, but our failings haven't been down to a lack of money, they've been down to a succession of managers completely squandering it and being incapable of selecting a good team. If we had a manager who was pushing his squad to its limits and got relegated because of a lack of quality then by all means, bemoan the budget, but that's not the case: Morton have achieved hee-haw over the last decade because the managers haven't been good enough. Everything else is secondary to that fact.

 

Anyway, I'd say it's more than a tad hyperbolic to call John Kennedy a Celtic "legend", but he was well on course to be a fantastic defender, of that there's no doubt. Whilst it doesn't necessarily qualify him as a manager, I think the mental toughness he showed to come back from a few serious injuries as a player is pretty admirable, as is the fact that he threw himself right back into football when he retired; if he was willing to drop down to the middle of the First Division to start his career as a manager, that'd also be a decent reflection of his attitude. The fact that he's played at the top level in modern football and coached a hugely successful team whilst still being young enough (theoretically) to still be playing at that level would be in his favour too.

 

I've no idea whatsoever of his abilities as a coach or potential manager, could be that he's a totally diddy, but at face value there's a lot in his favour just from his career path. It's not really comparable to the likes of McInally or McDowell at all..

[cmdc]

We?

Yes

[EanieMeany]

It seems to be a pre-requisite to a certain vintage of Morton fans, when they're having a tantrum about the fact that Wake is a Morton legend while Dunga McClung, their favourite back-up left-back throughout the 1990s, is not. See the strop below:

 

 

 

Also...what?!

[cmdc]

I don't really buy into this "poor wee Morton" routine. A PSG budget it may be, but our failings haven't been down to a lack of money, they've been down to a succession of managers completely squandering it and being incapable of regularly selecting a good team. If we had a manager who was pushing his squad to its limits and got relegated because of a lack of quality then by all means, bemoan the budget, but that's not the case: Morton have achieved hee-haw over the last decade because the managers haven't been good enough. Everything else is secondary to that fact.

 

Anyway, I'd say it's more than a tad hyperbolic to call John Kennedy a Celtic "legend", but he was well on course to be a fantastic defender, of that there's no doubt. Whilst it doesn't necessarily qualify him as a manager, I think the mental toughness he showed to come back from a few serious injuries as a player is pretty admirable, as is the fact that he threw himself right back into football when he retired; if he was willing to drop down to the middle of the First Division to start his career as a manager, that'd also be a decent reflection of his attitude. The fact that he's played at the top level in modern football and coached a hugely successful team whilst still being young enough (theoretically) to still be playing at that level would be in his favour too.

 

I've no idea whatsoever of his abilities as a coach or potential manager, could be that he's a totally diddy, but at face value there's a lot in his favour just from his career path. It's not really comparable to the likes of McInally or McDowell at all..

I think we are agreeing here? Are we agreeing here? I think we are?