Poor wee Rangers

[TRVMP]

The absolute last thing we need is proactive legislation to deal with something that isn't a problem. As I've said, sectarianism as an Issue Blighting Scottish Society simply doesn't exist anymore. (It's pretty remarkable how quickly this happened. While I don't know, I'd imagine it's correlated with the near-disappearance of religious observance, and with a decline in unionized, industrial employment.) The only thing that then happens is that bad actors - in this case, clypes trying to get a football team they don't like into trouble - manufacture problems for which they can implement a punishment by way of solution.

 

In reality, Scotland did a pretty damn good job of nearly eradicating sectarian discrimination - that is, the part of sectarianism that matters - through a combination of cultural changes and a light application of the law. 

[AyrshireTon]

Have they claimed yet that it’s rouge Celtic fans starting it to get them into bother on purpose?

Same as the Celtic fan in disguise who must have nicked some guy’s wallet at Ibrox once because “bears don’t steal from other bears” apparently.

[GiGi]

Yes, you got completely bodied.

This is poor. Rangers are bigots and are finally being punished for being bigots. No sympathy.

[TRVMP]

This is poor. Rangers are bigots and are finally being punished for being bigots. No sympathy.

Yes, they're being punished for being something, as opposed to doing something - this is the inevitable outcome of an arbitrary system in which partisans control both the definition of the offense and the method of punishment. Maybe take a few minutes to mull over why that might be a little dangerous.

[BishopBrennan]

The absolute last thing we need is proactive legislation to deal with something that isn't a problem. As I've said, sectarianism as an Issue Blighting Scottish Society simply doesn't exist anymore. (It's pretty remarkable how quickly this happened. While I don't know, I'd imagine it's correlated with the near-disappearance of religious observance, and with a decline in unionized, industrial employment.) The only thing that then happens is that bad actors - in this case, clypes trying to get a football team they don't like into trouble - manufacture problems for which they can implement a punishment by way of solution.

 

In reality, Scotland did a pretty damn good job of nearly eradicating sectarian discrimination - that is, the part of sectarianism that matters - through a combination of cultural changes and a light application of the law. 

 

What do you define as a light application of the law? The Criminal Justice and Licencing (Scotland) Act (2010) and The Communications (Scotland) Act (2003) are commonly used in relation to football offences (the former outside for offences committed in person and the latter for offences online). These statutes give more specificity to criminal changes surrounding issues of religion and football, both of which are competent aggravations on these charges. Essentially over the last 16 years more specific laws have been passed for offences of this nature, instead of relying on the antiquated Breach of the Peace offences under Common Law. 

 

Statute law allowing more specific charges; and a wider range of sentencing options depending on the nature, location and aggravations of the offence, doesn't strike me as a 'light application of the law' in the slightest. 

[TRVMP]

Football "offenses" are a way for fans of one team to punish fans of another team. From the context of my post, it's clear I'm talking about things that actually matter, such as discrimination in employment.

[BishopBrennan]

Football "offenses" are a way for fans of one team to punish fans of another team. From the context of my post, it's clear I'm talking about things that actually matter, such as discrimination in employment.

 

Not when prosecuted through the legal system they're not. And I don't remember you being appointed as the arbitrator of which strands of sectarianism matter and which ones don't. 

[EanieMeany]

"...What is neglected is the stark evidence that of the 7000+ religiously aggravated hate crimes 55-60% have been anti-catholic in nature. This is despite this community being only 16% of the population"

 

https://bellacaledonia.org.uk/2019/02/24/the-unexceptional-face-of-scottish-sectarianism/

 

Quite a set of statistics for something that doesn't represent a problem in day-to-day society. 

[TRVMP]

Not when prosecuted through the legal system they're not. And I don't remember you being appointed as the arbitrator of which strands of sectarianism matter and which ones don't.

 

You acknowledged earlier that the 'stakeholder' aspect - the self-appointed experts - are a vector which can enter a system. The civil law isn't exempt from this.

[BishopBrennan]

You acknowledged earlier that the 'stakeholder' aspect - the self-appointed experts - are a vector which can enter a system. The civil law isn't exempt from this.

 

If that's the basis for your position then it's nothing more than an exercise in synecdoche. A minute part of policy creation being somewhat questionable doesn't mean the whole system is broken, and that certainly doesn't mean issues should be ignored because of it. To suggest so is incredibly obtuse. Sectarianism is a far more common issue in criminal courts than in civil courts, as well you know. 

[TRVMP]

"...What is neglected is the stark evidence that of the 7000+ religiously aggravated hate crimes 55-60% have been anti-catholic in nature. This is despite this community being only 16% of the population"

 

https://bellacaledonia.org.uk/2019/02/24/the-unexceptional-face-of-scottish-sectarianism/

 

Quite a set of statistics for something that doesn't represent a problem in day-to-day society.

 

I agree. It's an incredibly small number, especially given how open-ended the statute is. Given that these figures are over the course of a decade - one of us actually knows these numbers, and it isn't you - and reflect charges, not convictions, the number of offences is tiny compared to the amount of bloviation we must endure.

 

In the case of most - not all, but most - crimes, the perception is far, far worse than the reality. Sometimes this is actually justified. For example, a child is vanishingly unlikely to die in a school shooting in the US, but it's a national concern - and so it should be, because the societal costs go far beyond a far death figures on a spreadsheet. Schools are now being designed with bendy corridors to prevent open fire, kids must go through metal detectors, palpable fear and mistrust are everywhere. So it's justifiable to treat it as a national emergency in a way that, say, pool drownings are not. My contention here isn't to say that 'sectarian' crimes don't exist. It's to say that the overwhelming majority of them don't matter, and for the most part the fretting about it is motivated by a desire to punish one of two sets of football fans, rather than to 'stop hate' or whatever it is you're convincing yourself of this week.

[TRVMP]

If that's the basis for your position then it's nothing more than an exercise in synecdoche. A minute part of policy creation being somewhat questionable doesn't mean the whole system is broken, and that certainly doesn't mean issues should be ignored because of it. To suggest so is incredibly obtuse. Sectarianism is a far more common issue in criminal courts than in civil courts, as well you know.

 

Sure, it's certainly not all of it. There will be well-meaning aspects to this, and there certainly have been historical wrongs, in employment discrimination and more, and people who were actually there won't want to see it repeated. And there's the not-trivial desire to punish the working class and football fans, both of whom are overrepresented on both sides of the supposed crisis of sectarianism. It's not just that Nil By Mouth rocked up one day magicked all this into being. But the squeaky wheel gets the grease, and as actual, things-that-matter sectarianism recedes even more into the distant past, we will see more and more solutions in search of a problem, and more and more bad actors using the law to punish enemies, rather than to right wrongs.

 

The last part of your post is a tautology. I know fine well it's more common in the criminal courts. That's because the criminal courts have made it their business, not because it's some ironclad universal constant.

[capitanus]

Fucking brilliant trolling:

 

https://www.thescottishsun.co.uk/sport/football/4661337/legia-warsaw-rangers-pope-john-paul-ii/

 

 

[capitanus]

Scotland’s champions were treated equally with the other tinpot entrants and proved the wisdom of that by getting knocked out by a bunch of Romanian cabbage-howkers.

I thought you were right into Romanian stuff?

[TheGoon]

That Legia banner is incredible. Let the Tims have it on Sunday imo.

[TopCat]

Yes, they're being punished for being something, as opposed to doing something - this is the inevitable outcome of an arbitrary system in which partisans control both the definition of the offense and the method of punishment. Maybe take a few minutes to mull over why that might be a little dangerous.

I hear what you're saying about the tit for tat pressure applied by the OF and their manipulation of lobby groups. However, I dont think UEFA are really interested in anything other than maintaining the image of a politically sterile, safe product. Rangers' (and Celtic's) tragic wee ultra groups have been getting more ambitious in recent years and UEFA need to keep a lid on that.

 

Edit - just saw the banner. Beautiful.

[capitanus]

That Legia banner is incredible. Let the Tims have it on Sunday imo.

^^^ No. fuck them.

[TRVMP]

I hear what you're saying about the tit for tat pressure applied by the OF and their manipulation of lobby groups. However, I dont think UEFA are really interested in anything other than maintaining the image of a politically sterile, safe product. Rangers' (and Celtic's) tragic wee ultra groups have been getting more ambitious in recent years and UEFA need to keep a lid on that.

Edit - just saw the banner. Beautiful.

You're quite correct about UEFA. Unless it's done clear-as-day Bad Racism that the majority of a global audience can readily hear or see, they're unlikely to care. So they outsource the caring to various lobbying groups. And who gravitates towards them?

[capitanus]

The absolute last thing we need is proactive legislation to deal with something that isn't a problem. As I've said, sectarianism as an Issue Blighting Scottish Society simply doesn't exist anymore. (It's pretty remarkable how quickly this happened. While I don't know, I'd imagine it's correlated with the near-disappearance of religious observance, and with a decline in unionized, industrial employment.) The only thing that then happens is that bad actors - in this case, clypes trying to get a football team they don't like into trouble - manufacture problems for which they can implement a punishment by way of solution.

 

In reality, Scotland did a pretty damn good job of nearly eradicating sectarian discrimination - that is, the part of sectarianism that matters - through a combination of cultural changes and a light application of the law.

 

Don't mind me saying so, I think you're either trolling here, or being pretty naive if you think that Sectarianism is 'nearly eradicated' in Scotland. It exists. It has done for centuries now and it's likely to exist for longer than our lifetime too.

 

Dare I say it, your comments are a bit similar to Alibi's comments saying that sectarianism isn't an issue down his neck of the woods when he is white, non-catholic, middle-class male and perhaps a bit isolated from such environments where such attitudes and mentalities prevail and even thrive. If he was a unemployed manual labourer desperately looking for work, a staffie-owning layabout from a sink estate, a regular in his local Rangers club or a parish priest he may have a totally different perspective.

 

It's similar to saying that Racism isn't an issue, but the Pakistani shopkeeper or Taxi driver who experiences it on a near daily basis may beg to differ; or similar to saying Homophobia is a thing of the past but an effeminate male who gets called a '****' or a 'faggot' on a regular basis may beg to differ.

[capitanus]

The Harry Dunn's game had to be stopped as Legia Supporters flooded the place with smoke from flares. They're now doing some strange bare-chested Poznan thing in the corner.

 

This game is heading for Extra Time.

 

Edit to add: Morelos scores in 90 mins.

 

Edit to add: Players all swedging on the park now...

 

Edit to add: FT 1-0 Rangers.

 

Players fighting on the park now.