Hardie And Peaso On Off The Ball Radio Scotland

[Malt]

Remember Douglas had a 5 year plan to get us to SPL...Poor management, failure to budget and the guy in charge making poor business decisions is why we run at a loss.

 

Teams like Kilmarnock are offering three year deals to players and we are still hearing about part time instead of following up on last year, giving title a good go and being ready for a promotion push.

 

Mid table next season unleass the stories of major ssalary cuts are untrue.

[ThornTON]

Remember Douglas had a 5 year plan to get us to SPL...Poor management, failure to budget and the guy in charge making poor business decisions is why we run at a loss.

 

Teams like Kilmarnock are offering three year deals to players and we are still hearing about part time instead of following up on last year, giving title a good go and being ready for a promotion push.

 

Mid table next season unleass the stories of major ssalary cuts are untrue.

If the play-offs are brought in then potentially we only need to finish top four to have a chance at promotion. *sees pigs fly*

[etta crouTON]

Don't buy that. We run at pretty significant losses and need to take moves to put the club on a more sustainable footing. Relying on the ability or goodwill of a third party to fund those recurring losses is a recipe for disaster.

Nonsense!

 

HE chooses to transfer losses to the parent company every year. Look at the Golden Casket accounts before deciding whether or not those are really significant in terms of the bigger picture. Only HE can 'take moves to put the Club on a more sustainable footing'. As it's HE who is making those losses it's risible to talk of goodwill. The fact is that WE have absolutely no say in the matter. Please don't cite the Trust shareholding which isn't worth a tinker's curse if truth be told.

 

If you want the Chairman to 'get real' stop kissing his bloody ass and start telling the old devil the truth!

[LinwoodTON]

Well, no. If you can't afford to pay them what they're worth you don't pay them it and they go somewhere that they are paid what they're worth. The likes of Brewster and Crawford were Dunfermline's best players a few years ago. That didn't mean that Dunfermline should've been paying them their market value. They shouldn't have been at the club because they couldn't afford them and are now paying the price for their folly.

 

Fact is Mr Rae can afford to pay a player what they are worth, but chooses not to. Even paying Reid what he was paid last year still wouldn't be paying him what he is worth. The only way Rae will ever get any of his money back is to push on from last year and mount a challenge this year. And to do that retaining the spine of the team is vital. To let players leave for the sake of pennies only suggests that Rae has finally thrown in the towel and is now content on saving a few bob on players whilst dropping down to the seaside leagues. Obviously you see this as acceptable as long as the club becomes more sustainable but I, and many others, don't.

[Nickaton]

Would be actually better going part time if all we are offering is part time wages to be full time. 2 players knocked back full time football and there will be more.

[Toby]

Fact is Mr Rae can afford to pay a player what they are worth, but chooses not to. Even paying Reid what he was paid last year still wouldn't be paying him what he is worth. The only way Rae will ever get any of his money back is to push on from last year and mount a challenge this year. And to do that retaining the spine of the team is vital. To let players leave for the sake of pennies only suggests that Rae has finally thrown in the towel and is now content on saving a few bob on players whilst dropping down to the seaside leagues. Obviously you see this as acceptable as long as the club becomes more sustainable but I, and many others, don't.

 

I see no suggestion whatsoever that Rae's happy to see us drop down to the seaside leagues. Quite the opposite infact. It's ironic that a mere day after we see Dunfermline drop down there as a result of overspending you expect Morton to do the same by watching the pennies. Even by cutting their cloth, there's absolutely no reason Morton should be any less than a First Division club- that is our station in Scottish Football. We've got a bigger fanbase than Alloa, Cowdenbeath, Dumbarton and Hamilton in our division and a similar one to, if not bigger one than Livingston, Queen of the South and Raith Rovers. Just because a similar sized club like Ayr flirt between the First and Second with more seasons in the Second, doesn't mean we should expect the same by not spending a lot of money.

 

You're very keen to point out that Rae can afford Reid. I can afford to go and fire a grand on Morton to win the First Division next year- I'm not going to though because I've got other priorities. We as a support have absolutely no right to expect Rae, or any other chairman for that matter, to spend his own money an any other way than he sees fit. If we're going to be critical of his spending, I'd sooner look at criticising for the money spent in transfer fees on guys like Templeman, Linn, McAnespie and Russell down the years than of penny pinching.

 

The fans haven't supported the club in their best season since I was at school so quite why we can expect the boat to be pushed out yet again is beyond me. I note your point that Rae has thrown the towel in- is he the only one? An average crowd of around 2100 which was distorted by out of the ordinary gates against Partick twice, Dunfermline and Dumbarton would suggest so. Harsh on those of us that have turned up but that's life.

 

Contrary to what you conclude your post with, I'm not happy to see Morton in the seaside leagues as long as they're sustainable- far from it. However, nor am I happy to see year upon year of overspending and losing money- with debt to Golden Casket mounting and a Dunfermline scenario further down the line.

 

There is a massive difference between the two. Hopefully money is found for Craig Reid, who merits a rise, never mind the same wage, and I'd suggest the Not signing Tena from Livingston, who's been a diddy when I've seen him, particulary in the 2-2 game up there, might free up a few pennies if we can find a cheaper alternative, might help. However, if we can't afford him, the alternative is that we lick our wounds, get on with it and find someone who can do a job for less money. That doesn't mean resigning ourselves to relegation like you suggest.

[Rasta Ton]

I see no suggestion whatsoever that Rae's happy to see us drop down to the seaside leagues. Quite the opposite infact. It's ironic that a mere day after we see Dunfermline drop down there as a result of overspending you expect Morton to do the same by watching the pennies. Even by cutting their cloth, there's absolutely no reason Morton should be any less than a First Division club- that is our station in Scottish Football. We've got a bigger fanbase than Alloa, Cowdenbeath, Dumbarton and Hamilton in our division and a similar one to, if not bigger one than Livingston, Queen of the South and Raith Rovers. Just because a similar sized club like Ayr flirt between the First and Second with more seasons in the Second, doesn't mean we should expect the same by not spending a lot of money.

 

You're very keen to point out that Rae can afford Reid. I can afford to go and fire a grand on Morton to win the First Division next year- I'm not going to though because I've got other priorities. We as a support have absolutely no right to expect Rae, or any other chairman for that matter, to spend his own money an any other way than he sees fit. If we're going to be critical of his spending, I'd sooner look at criticising for the money spent in transfer fees on guys like Templeman, Linn, McAnespie and Russell down the years than of penny pinching.

 

The fans haven't supported the club in their best season since I was at school so quite why we can expect the boat to be pushed out yet again is beyond me. I note your point that Rae has thrown the towel in- is he the only one? An average crowd of around 2100 which was distorted by out of the ordinary gates against Partick twice, Dunfermline and Dumbarton would suggest so. Harsh on those of us that have turned up but that's life.

 

Contrary to what you conclude your post with, I'm not happy to see Morton in the seaside leagues as long as they're sustainable- far from it. However, nor am I happy to see year upon year of overspending and losing money- with debt to Golden Casket mounting and a Dunfermline scenario further down the line.

 

There is a massive difference between the two. Hopefully money is found for Craig Reid, who merits a rise, never mind the same wage, and I'd suggest the Not signing Tena from Livingston, who's been a diddy when I've seen him, particulary in the 2-2 game up there, might free up a few pennies if we can find a cheaper alternative, might help. However, if we can't afford him, the alternative is that we lick our wounds, get on with it and find someone who can do a job for less money. That doesn't mean resigning ourselves to relegation like you suggest.

 

Hits the nail firmly on the head.

 

[TAFKAC]

Toby - A very good post.

[Rampage Nu Sport]

Nonsense!

 

HE chooses to transfer losses to the parent company every year. Look at the Golden Casket accounts before deciding whether or not those are really significant in terms of the bigger picture. Only HE can 'take moves to put the Club on a more sustainable footing'. As it's HE who is making those losses it's risible to talk of goodwill. The fact is that WE have absolutely no say in the matter. Please don't cite the Trust shareholding which isn't worth a tinker's curse if truth be told.

 

If you want the Chairman to 'get real' stop kissing his bloody ass and start telling the old devil the truth!

 

And a reminder that by doing that, the Raes can write off Morton's losses against Casket's profits, meaning they reduce their tax bills - so a trading loss of (say) £300k at Morton doesn't actually cost the Raes £300k.

[MacKTon]

Toby - A very good post.

 

Agreed

[Alibi]

Agreed

 

Seconded. Or thirded, fourthed or whatever it is.

[irnbru]

Seconded. Or thirded, fourthed or whatever it is.

 

Didn't you call it a disgrace on another thread on the point about Reid?

[cmdc]

I see no suggestion whatsoever that Rae's happy to see us drop down to the seaside leagues. Quite the opposite infact. It's ironic that a mere day after we see Dunfermline drop down there as a result of overspending you expect Morton to do the same by watching the pennies. Even by cutting their cloth, there's absolutely no reason Morton should be any less than a First Division club- that is our station in Scottish Football. We've got a bigger fanbase than Alloa, Cowdenbeath, Dumbarton and Hamilton in our division and a similar one to, if not bigger one than Livingston, Queen of the South and Raith Rovers. Just because a similar sized club like Ayr flirt between the First and Second with more seasons in the Second, doesn't mean we should expect the same by not spending a lot of money.

 

You're very keen to point out that Rae can afford Reid. I can afford to go and fire a grand on Morton to win the First Division next year- I'm not going to though because I've got other priorities. We as a support have absolutely no right to expect Rae, or any other chairman for that matter, to spend his own money an any other way than he sees fit. If we're going to be critical of his spending, I'd sooner look at criticising for the money spent in transfer fees on guys like Templeman, Linn, McAnespie and Russell down the years than of penny pinching.

 

The fans haven't supported the club in their best season since I was at school so quite why we can expect the boat to be pushed out yet again is beyond me. I note your point that Rae has thrown the towel in- is he the only one? An average crowd of around 2100 which was distorted by out of the ordinary gates against Partick twice, Dunfermline and Dumbarton would suggest so. Harsh on those of us that have turned up but that's life.

 

Contrary to what you conclude your post with, I'm not happy to see Morton in the seaside leagues as long as they're sustainable- far from it. However, nor am I happy to see year upon year of overspending and losing money- with debt to Golden Casket mounting and a Dunfermline scenario further down the line.

 

There is a massive difference between the two. Hopefully money is found for Craig Reid, who merits a rise, never mind the same wage, and I'd suggest the Not signing Tena from Livingston, who's been a diddy when I've seen him, particulary in the 2-2 game up there, might free up a few pennies if we can find a cheaper alternative, might help. However, if we can't afford him, the alternative is that we lick our wounds, get on with it and find someone who can do a job for less money. That doesn't mean resigning ourselves to relegation like you suggest.

 

Yep, again - completely agree.

 

[Alibi]

Didn't you call it a disgrace on another thread on the point about Reid?

I think it's a disgrace to be cutting Reid's wages given that he is a key member of our squad and one of our two or three best players last season. My solution would be to make any necessary spending cuts in other areas of the team and elsewhere in the club budget, but to try to keep those players deemed vital to success. We have lost Peaso, Graham and Hardie, all of whom I suspect were relatively expensive, plus Rusty who although on a pay per game basis was presumably not on minimum wage and was in the team more often than not, so those players departing means big savings. Unless you consider that all players should be paid the same, you need to allow for some degree of cost/benefit analysis, and I would suggest that keeping Reid would improve the team enough that attendances would be higher and thus he would not in fact cost us any more playing for us than a more mediocre player. If crowds go up by 100 each fortnight, that is an extra £750 a week, or say £500 a week if we allow for concessions etc, not to mention any extra peripheral income. That would probably pay for Reidy entirely, let alone the difference in cost between him and a less gifted player. There's cutting losses and there's cutting standards. The two are not necessarily in direct proportion.

[cmdc]

I think it's a disgrace to be cutting Reid's wages given that he is a key member of our squad and one of our two or three best players last season. My solution would be to make any necessary spending cuts in other areas of the team and elsewhere in the club budget, but to try to keep those players deemed vital to success. We have lost Peaso, Graham and Hardie, all of whom I suspect were relatively expensive, plus Rusty who although on a pay per game basis was presumably not on minimum wage and was in the team more often than not, so those players departing means big savings. Unless you consider that all players should be paid the same, you need to allow for some degree of cost/benefit analysis, and I would suggest that keeping Reid would improve the team enough that attendances would be higher and thus he would not in fact cost us any more playing for us than a more mediocre player. If crowds go up by 100 each fortnight, that is an extra £750 a week, or say £500 a week if we allow for concessions etc, not to mention any extra peripheral income. That would probably pay for Reidy entirely, let alone the difference in cost between him and a less gifted player. There's cutting losses and there's cutting standards. The two are not necessarily in direct proportion.

 

That's a big if given the attendances that we managed to attract last season.

 

[Rampage Nu Sport]

That's a big if given the attendances that we managed to attract last season.

Probably not explained properly by the original poster - in fact, what we should ask ourselves is whether the gates will remain at last season's level if we aren't challenging at the top? If the answer to that is no, then the business brain of the club needs to work out the cost versus benefit obtained from a poorer performing but cheaper team - doesn't automatically mean losses are cut.

 

And remember that, despite what some gloom-mongers claimed, gates were up last season - just not by as much as they should have been.

[etta crouTON]

Yep, again - completely agree.

You COMPLETELY agree Chris? Why, as a Trust Director and Co - Director of the Community Trust (with Crawford Rae and our silent resident accountant), are you happy to pander to Douglas Rae's apologists? Shame on you!

 

I absolutely refute Toby's inference (citing his own multi-millionaire lifestyle in the process ) that Mr. Rae's budget cuts relate to 'other priorities'. There appear to be over six million pounds gathering dust and interest in the octogenarian Chairman's bank account! Even at moderate rates that interest alone cancels out last years deficit by the club!

 

He vowed ten years back that he'd take us to the S.P.L., and now - just as we linger on the brink - he seemingly can't afford a measly five grand to retain the services of last season's most reliable defender. Has he lost his bottle, his marbles, or both? Some bloody entrepreneur!

 

Budget cuts at this stage are nothing short of lunacy! We have our first patch of stability since Rae became Chairman. Allan Moore's an able Manager who's given us our most successful finish in many a long year. The youth initiative and Community Trust (with unstinting input from Warren Hawke) are starting to take shape. All that's missing is promotion. Douglas Rae is NOT making budget cuts because he has to, but because for some inexplicable reason he wants to. That beggars belief!

[El gofer]

i notice that noobe is rising to ettas bait so i will.

 

whilst i am extremely disappointed that players like reid are being offered reduced wages and as a result we will most probably lose him, it suggests that we are sticking to a ridged wage structure which, for once will put an emphasis on bringing through the best of the youths.

I just dont buy this "well Gilden Casket are doing superbly so can continue propping us up."

I dont think I am alone in being uneasy with that scenario.. If it means a reduced wage bill to reflect income then call me a Rae apologist.

 

I reckon we will see a core of experienced players with more fringe players like oware and the new boy mckeeetc pushing to establish themselves while the rest of the squad is last seaspns reserves such as mclaughlin knight poss keogh. etc.

[etta crouTON]

i notice that noobe is rising to ettas bait so i will.

 

whilst i am extremely disappointed that players like reid are being offered reduced wages and as a result we will most probably lose him, it suggests that we are sticking to a ridged wage structure which, for once will put an emphasis on bringing through the best of the youths.

I just dont buy this "well Gilden Casket are doing superbly so can continue propping us up."

I dont think I am alone in being uneasy with that scenario.. If it means a reduced wage bill to reflect income then call me a Rae apologist.

 

I reckon we will see a core of experienced players with more fringe players like oware and the new boy mckeeetc pushing to establish themselves while the rest of the squad is last seaspns reserves such as mclaughlin knight poss keogh. etc.

There was no bait to take. I made it perfectly clear elsewhere that I reckon getting to the S.P.L. is the only realistic way of REDUCING the debt to Golden Casket. In no way am I condoning ' further propping up'. I see prudent investment in an active drive for promotion next season as the only solution to the Club's current financial situation.

[LargsTON]

There was no bait to take. I made it perfectly clear that I reckon getting to the S.P.L. is the only realistic way of REDUCING the debt to Golden Casket. In no way am I condoning ' further propping up'. I see prudent investment in an active drive for promotion next season as the only solution to the Club's current financial situation.

 

I totally agree.

 

We've come this far and it's the timings of these cut that baffles me. We're on the brink of making the top flight, be it through winning the title or by reconstruction, there's further money about to be drip fed to the SFL yet Rae is playing a dangerous game as the way the squad's shaping up we could well miss out. That would make the past 10 years a waste of everyone's time.

 

I've said it already but I fear we may be relegated next season as the warning signs are there now that we could be in for a tough season, even with the poor standard of opposition. We've seen what adding some good, experienced pros did for us last season. We're now about to see what losing them is about to do to our team and it won't be pretty.

 

Peaso and Hardie dug us out a hole on many occasions last season so **** knows who's going to do it next season with those two away.