Away Fans' Accommodation in the Championship

[Toby]

16 minutes ago, Alibi said:

Very useful synopsis of our division. One minor point though, regarding our main stand - the poor legroom is nothing to do with Hugh Scott, but a legacy of buying a second hand stand from Leith Athletic about a hundred years ago, when people were smaller. It was tight for legroom when I went to my first game, in May 1963, aged 11.

Agreed we do need improvements. Quite a few.

I disagree- whilst the legroom was always relatively tight, in the Hugh Scott era, the bench seats were converted to what is currently in place.

Adding those seats, with the backs that curl back at the top and dig into the person behind’s legs are the main problem with the legroom, rather than the actual gap itself.

[AyrshireTon]

14 hours ago, Pedrodelawasp said:

As much as I love our old place, I’ve got to agree it is in need of work in a number of places. Not least the toilet situation. A while back when the main stand had to empty via the away end I used the toilets behind the Wee Dublin end and found them to be even more tired and in need of work than those in the Cowshed or the stand. It’s been a couple of years since I’ve been in the Sinclair St end, but the bogs were in a pretty sorry state then and I don’t imagine that will have changed much.

Hot running water, working hand dryers and some soap would be a good start!

The toilets at the WDE have been there for over 40 years and I’d be surprised if they had changed at all since then.

Regarding the original post, I’d be interested to know what stops us from putting the away fans at the far end of the Cowshed on a regular basis.

[Alibi]

8 hours ago, Toby said:

I disagree- whilst the legroom was always relatively tight, in the Hugh Scott era, the bench seats were converted to what is currently in place.

Adding those seats, with the backs that curl back at the top and dig into the person behind’s legs are the main problem with the legroom, rather than the actual gap itself.

Actually apart from being in hospitality and a couple of occasions when I was in the directors box I have very rarely sat in the main stand since about 1970 as I much prefer the Cowshed. If they have added seat backs like that, I can see why there are so many complaints. Probably the case that the seat/bench spacing doesn’t comply with the green guide anyway, one of many non-compliances, just like many old grounds. The answer of course is to knock the stand down and build a new one with fewer rows, but we don’t have the money to do that.

[The Bewilderedbeast]

11 minutes ago, Alibi said:

Actually apart from being in hospitality and a couple of occasions when I was in the directors box I have very rarely sat in the main stand since about 1970 as I much prefer the Cowshed. If they have added seat backs like that, I can see why there are so many complaints. Probably the case that the seat/bench spacing doesn’t comply with the green guide anyway, one of many non-compliances, just like many old grounds. The answer of course is to knock the stand down and build a new one with fewer rows, but we don’t have the money to do that

When the local building control and Police were doing the annual preseason inspection that year (in which I was involved), the issue of the stand seating was raised.

If I recall correctly the green guide at the time (don't know if the regs etc have changed since) gave the minimum distance between the back of the seat being occupied to the rear of the seat in front as 450mm.

Approximately 10-12 seats were chosen and measured at random throughout the stand and each were the minimum distance. So, while they were less than comfortable for anyone over 5ft tall, they were legal.

[SpoonTon]

I'm 6ft and I've always felt that the legroom issue in the main stand is overstated. It's obviously tight but on the rare occasions I'm in the main stand I've never felt that it's particularly uncomfortable. I don't feel like the comfort level is that much different to most seats at football grounds. 

[TONofmemories]

They take card at the kiosk. Scenes

[vikingTON]

On 12/11/2023 at 12:29 PM, AyrshireTon said:

Regarding the original post, I’d be interested to know what stops us from putting the away fans at the far end of the Cowshed on a regular basis.

Nothing other than it being a shite idea that inconveniences home fans and adds stewarding costs to police the gap with whatever mutants are on the opposite side. It has been tried several times before and has failed to live up to the billing - and there's absolutely nothing wrong with the WDE as an alternative. 

[Alibi]

6 hours ago, vikingTON said:

Nothing other than it being a shite idea that inconveniences home fans and adds stewarding costs to police the gap with whatever mutants are on the opposite side. It has been tried several times before and has failed to live up to the billing - and there's absolutely nothing wrong with the WDE as an alternative. 

Apart from the lack of a roof. A deliberate policy of making a visit to Cappielow as uncomfortable as possible is counterproductive. As Arbroath realised belatedly on Saturday and acted to ameliorate the situation. Grow up.

[shaddypeekey]

9 hours ago, vikingTON said:

Nothing other than it being a shite idea that inconveniences home fans and adds stewarding costs to police the gap with whatever mutants are on the opposite side. It has been tried several times before and has failed to live up to the billing - and there's absolutely nothing wrong with the WDE as an alternative. 

There's nothing inconvenient about it all.  It provides covered shelter and most certainly contributes to a better atmosphere in the stadium.  If we want to moan about Arbroath not providing shelter, we need to get our own house in order.  In fact, on speaking about this issue to several fans of different clubs, they loved being in the wee corner of the Cowshed.   

[vikingTON]

10 hours ago, Alibi said:

Apart from the lack of a roof. A deliberate policy of making a visit to Cappielow as uncomfortable as possible is counterproductive. As Arbroath realised belatedly on Saturday and acted to ameliorate the situation. Grow up.

The Nou Camp doesn't have a roof, yet I don't see you crying about the horrid injustice of that. 

[vikingTON]

8 hours ago, shaddypeekey said:

There's nothing inconvenient about it all.  It provides covered shelter and most certainly contributes to a better atmosphere in the stadium.  If we want to moan about Arbroath not providing shelter, we need to get our own house in order.  In fact, on speaking about this issue to several fans of different clubs, they loved being in the wee corner of the Cowshed.   

Or we could not moan about Arbroath instead of compromising our own fans' viewing - which splitting the Cowshed necessarily involves, alongside the extra cost of policing these weirdo away fans enjoying themselves in the corner of the Cowshed.

There's little evidence that it produces a better atmosphere though - for some games (usually ones where the WDE would be used anyway) there was an atmosphere. Opening it for a handful of teuchter bumpkins last night would not have turned the place into the Ali Sami Yen. 

[Alibi]

44 minutes ago, vikingTON said:

The Nou Camp doesn't have a roof, yet I don't see you crying about the horrid injustice of that. 

The Nou Camp isn't in Greenock, and it tends to enjoy a drier and warmer climate.  Also it's currently being upgraded, so it may well have a roof in the near future.

[ayrstorm]

On 12/10/2023 at 2:24 PM, Toby said:

Ayr United

Another product of it's time, but in a very different way to Airdrie. The shallow terrace at Ayr doesn't make for the best views, but it's not bad. A comfortable terrace that allows for a decent atmosphere to be created, although I await to see if away fans will be catered for anywhere in their new stand.

I've not bought anything to eat at their ground in years, but my memory of it was that it was a bit overpriced. I'd probably have more against them if we were restricted to one end of the stand and the wee enclosure at the front like some smaller supports get, but it's not bad at all. Toilets are of course, very poor.

The first club to introduce e-tickets at this level, which was quite widely criticised at the time, but has become the norm and works pretty well. It would be nice to be allowed into Cameron's Bar, but you can't have everything.

 

Yes away fans are catered for in the new stand.
The terrace we had along the length of the pitch is still there for us to use plus the new seating that is behind that part is allocated to the visiting fans. There are new toilets and a pie stand - and looks like both those standing and seating get access to them. SO will have the choice of standing or sitting under the cover of the north stand roof when it opens.

If these links work, in first one you can see where the segregation gap is still in place on the north terrace - looks same area as before.
The 2nd link you can see on the left side of the plan the away seats, toilets and pie stand and steps down to the terrace.

22_00589_APP-APPROVED_-_3D_View_from_the_Tunnel-1027048.pdf (south-ayrshire.gov.uk)

22_00589_APP-APPROVED_-_Proposed_Ground_Floor_Plan-1027034.pdf (south-ayrshire.gov.uk)

[Alibi]

1 hour ago, ayrstorm said:

Yes away fans are catered for in the new stand.
The terrace we had along the length of the pitch is still there for us to use plus the new seating that is behind that part is allocated to the visiting fans. There are new toilets and a pie stand - and looks like both those standing and seating get access to them. SO will have the choice of standing or sitting under the cover of the north stand roof when it opens.

If these links work, in first one you can see where the segregation gap is still in place on the north terrace - looks same area as before.
The 2nd link you can see on the left side of the plan the away seats, toilets and pie stand and steps down to the terrace.

22_00589_APP-APPROVED_-_3D_View_from_the_Tunnel-1027048.pdf (south-ayrshire.gov.uk)

22_00589_APP-APPROVED_-_Proposed_Ground_Floor_Plan-1027034.pdf (south-ayrshire.gov.uk)

The links work, but the documents don't seem to be available at the moment.

[vikingTON]

20 hours ago, Alibi said:

The Nou Camp isn't in Greenock, and it tends to enjoy a drier and warmer climate.  

What does warmth have to do with putting people in the WDE or the Cowshed? Does it never rain in Barcelona in your fantasy scenario?

The reality is that punters always the opportunity at Cappielow to watch a game beneath a roof. If they exercise their free choice not to do so, that's entirely up to them. We shouldn't be putting a roof over either end of the ground or incurring extra costs stewarding the Cowshed because of such nonsense complaints - mostly by 'away fans' who had 0% intention of getting off their fat arse to attend Cappielow in the first place. 

Yours aye

A proper Supporters' Liaison Officer 

[Alibi]

4 hours ago, vikingTON said:

What does warmth have to do with putting people in the WDE or the Cowshed? Does it never rain in Barcelona in your fantasy scenario?

The reality is that punters always the opportunity at Cappielow to watch a game beneath a roof. If they exercise their free choice not to do so, that's entirely up to them. We shouldn't be putting a roof over either end of the ground or incurring extra costs stewarding the Cowshed because of such nonsense complaints - mostly by 'away fans' who had 0% intention of getting off their fat arse to attend Cappielow in the first place. 

Yours aye

A proper Supporters' Liaison Officer 

It certainly doesn't rain in Barcelona as often as it does in Greenock.  We know you prefer to have the whole of the Cowshed to yourself, fine.  Having a few hundred (at most) fans at the west end of the cowshed doesn't really inconvenience anyone and in the real world it seems to me that having folk standing in the pissing rain whilst there is room under cover is just a plain lack of common decency.  If they then choose to stand in the rain, that's their decision, but to provide no covered standing areas is not really being welcoming to paying customers.  And that goes for all other teams too.

[vikingTON]

1 hour ago, Alibi said:

It certainly doesn't rain in Barcelona as often as it does in Greenock.  We know you prefer to have the whole of the Cowshed to yourself, fine.  Having a few hundred (at most) fans at the west end of the cowshed doesn't really inconvenience anyone 

It does inconvenience fans who already stand in the West end of the Cowshed and have to move for the segregation zone required. As well as those standing in the East end who don't want a drummer banging in their ear for the game. 

It also costs the club money - will you be shelling out for this ridiculous, token gesture, or to front up the costs of any damage to the ground? 

"in the real world it seems to me that having folk standing in the pissing rain whilst there is room under cover is just a plain lack of common decency."

When has this actually happened at Cappielow - the stand being full to bursting and so poor, bedraggled away fans being forced to stand in pissing rain as you claim? 

Be extremely specific. 

"If they then choose to stand in the rain, that's their decision, but to provide no covered standing areas is not really being welcoming to paying customers.  And that goes for all other teams too."

They are already provided with a choice of either sitting or standing and either covered or uncovered facilities, so long  as they bring sufficient fans to justify that expense. Which is a greater choice than any ground offers to away fans in the Scottish Premiership, complete shitheaps like Firhill, Starks' Park etc. at our level as well as dumps like New Bayview, New Douglas  Park etc. offer in the lower reaches of the SPFL. Speaking of lower level permadiddies, even your local SPFL ground Palmerston Park does not provide any choice at all to the away support in normal circumstances.

So your point of view is in fact completely detached from the 'real world' context you have appealed to.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

* not for long 

[capitanus]

Having a dozen or so Alloa supporters or whoever in the Cowshed is something which most folk could put up with, however when there is several hundred Partick or Falkirk supporters they should be in the Wee Dublin End, regardless of the weather. 

If they wish to pay a premium for a covered seat, then they can have the end section of the main stand.  An extra tenner should be sufficent.  That's their choice - a soaking and birdshit or cramped uncomfortable seats.  Also, bump up the prices for their pies too.

 

Next.

[Alibi]

On 12/14/2023 at 8:14 PM, vikingTON said:

It does inconvenience fans who already stand in the West end of the Cowshed and have to move for the segregation zone required. As well as those standing in the East end who don't want a drummer banging in their ear for the game. 

It also costs the club money - will you be shelling out for this ridiculous, token gesture, or to front up the costs of any damage to the ground? 

"in the real world it seems to me that having folk standing in the pissing rain whilst there is room under cover is just a plain lack of common decency."

When has this actually happened at Cappielow - the stand being full to bursting and so poor, bedraggled away fans being forced to stand in pissing rain as you claim? 

Be extremely specific. 

"If they then choose to stand in the rain, that's their decision, but to provide no covered standing areas is not really being welcoming to paying customers.  And that goes for all other teams too."

They are already provided with a choice of either sitting or standing and either covered or uncovered facilities, so long  as they bring sufficient fans to justify that expense. Which is a greater choice than any ground offers to away fans in the Scottish Premiership, complete shitheaps like Firhill, Starks' Park etc. at our level as well as dumps like New Bayview, New Douglas  Park etc. offer in the lower reaches of the SPFL. Speaking of lower level permadiddies, even your local SPFL ground Palmerston Park does not provide any choice at all to the away support in normal circumstances.

So your point of view is in fact completely detached from the 'real world' context you have appealed to.

 

All-seated grounds clearly are not going to have standing areas obviously. The point here is simply that a situation where away fans are standing out in the rain when usually there is room at the end of the Cowshed to give them some cover is not ideal, just as was the case at Arbroath. But you of course just like an argument for the sake of it.

[vikingTON]

2 hours ago, Alibi said:

All-seated grounds clearly are not going to have standing areas obviously.

So they don't offer any choice to away fans at all then. Yet GMFC are apparently short-changing the little people for not throwing open fully three different sides of the ground for them to choose from, because rain. 

It's really not my fault that your real world based argument doesn't stand up to scrutiny.