Match Preview/Thread - Morton vs Inverness (7th December)

[HamCam]

Given the latest tears and snotters comments in The Sun, MCT could make up lost ground by ensuring the electricity is off, the bogs are blocked, the showers are locked on freezing cold... Caley Thistle threaten to boycott Morton game if made to use same 'disgusting, freezing and damp' Cappielow facilities (thescottishsun.co.uk)

[Toby]

2 minutes ago, 16Ton said:

The passage you quote Toby is also made up pish by a Hibs fan writing a book under Hugh Scott's tenure with really no idea of how the events came to pass save for a few sketchy newspaper reports. Surprised that VT actually goes along with it. Just because its in print doesn't make it true.  I think AyrshireTon nailed it earlier. Read Tom Robertson's centenary book for a much more accurate account. To say Morton fans rioted partly because we didn't win the league is risible. Or perhaps VT (and you) are just taking the passage out of context. Won't be getting the sackcloth and ashes out just yet.

That wasn't what you said originally, though. You said it was pish made up by vikingTON, which it quite clearly wasn't. It looks like he's used a source in good faith, and whether it's accurate or not isn't really the point. I'll also add that your reference to Hugh Scott doesn't really have any relevance to your point, and appears to be a pretty low way of discrediting the author, as if he was in cahoots with Scott.

If however, you wish to provide me with a copy of the Tom Robertson book to make my own mind up, that wouldn't go amiss. It was printed five years before I was born and isn't easily accessible nearly 50 years on from it's publication.

But yes, you still owe him an apology for labelling it his own "made up pish".

[port-ton]

15 minutes ago, Jamie_M said:

Where are you getting the 'almost half the league' bit from.

And what would you suggest for alternative changing facilities?

That latest article says that Ayr and Kilmarnock also complained and Nicky Low said on twitter that Arbroath complained. That's 4 out of 9 teams complained about it and regardless of sour grapes in public by Dodds that's not the sort of reputation the club wants to have behind the scenes in Scottish football circles. 

It's not my job to come up with suitable facilities, however if Diddy teams across the country can manage it then so should we as a full time professional club. 

[BishopBrennan]

10 minutes ago, port-ton said:

That latest article says that Ayr and Kilmarnock also complained and Nicky Low said on twitter that Arbroath complained. That's 4 out of 9 teams complained about it and regardless of sour grapes in public by Dodds that's not the sort of reputation the club wants to have behind the scenes in Scottish football circles. 

It's not my job to come up with suitable facilities, however if Diddy teams across the country can manage it then so should we as a full time professional club. 

If it's a choice between ensuring that we can have all our hospitality lounges running and generating income, which is where Morton players used to change when previous restrictions were in place, and upsetting opposition teams with our temporary fix, I know which option I'd rather choose. 

Dodds' main concern seems to be that the generator broke down on Tuesday night. There's not a lot Morton could do about that on the night. 

[Toby]

1 minute ago, port-ton said:

That latest article says that Ayr and Kilmarnock also complained and Nicky Low said on twitter that Arbroath complained. That's 4 out of 9 teams complained about it and regardless of sour grapes in public by Dodds that's not the sort of reputation the club wants to have behind the scenes in Scottish football circles. 

It's not my job to come up with suitable facilities, however if Diddy teams across the country can manage it then so should we as a full time professional club. 

We do, under normal circumstances though. As far as I recall, the changing facilities were upgraded in the early years of the Rae era and are only out of commission because of COVID and social distancing protocols. It wasn't an issue last season because the hospitality lounges could be used, but what are Morton supposed to do, here? Cut off the revenue stream of hospitality, when the club's absolutely skint? Or do we make an away club suck it up and get on with it?

It's a vicious cycle- no money coming in means no room to improve facilities. I do of course see a hint of irony that the most vocal complaints are coming from the manager of a club who received a £900,000 handout from the government to make up the shortfall in the building of their stadium- after the sale of the two deceased clubs' homes, the Football Trust money and a considerable grant from the Enterprise Board.

You're right in saying that we're all very quick to criticise our own whilst not allowing others to, but to be honest, I wouldn't have it any other way. And certainly not from a club who lives on handouts and racking up losses and debt that they don't appear to have any intention of paying back.

Inverness have been to Cappielow often enough in the last 20 years or so, they know the script. It's a low blow from an odious little man who wants to stick the boot in because the poor, impoverished paupers of the league managed to empty his band of stars from the cup. Get it up him.

[16Ton]

Perhaps VT could have made it clear that that he had read it somewhere then rather than quote it as if it was his own considered opinion. Still don't buy the theory at all regardless of academic papers. When I read VT's post I didn't like you, think of checking my Morton books. Well done on knowing exactly where to find it btw. As for your other point regarding the Centenary book you sound like some of these people on quiz shows when they're asked a question they don't know. "But I wasn't born yet." I'm about the same age as you and I got a copy on ebay. There may even be some in the libraries. 

 

 

[AyrshireTon]

1 hour ago, Toby said:

 

 

 

From page 11 of Jim Jeffrey's Greenock Morton Football Club 187-1999, part of the Images of Sport series by Tempus Publishing Ltd;

"The inability to wrest the title away from the Glasgow giants clearly rankled with the home support and when Celtic came to Cappielow in 1922 seeking to land the title it was too much to take for some Morton supporters- the infamous "Cappielow Riot" ensued."

So no, it's not actually a unique take, and it would appear vT has a source for his account of events on the day of the riot. Whether that account is true or not we'll never know, but to label it "VT's non fact made up pish" is well wide of the mark.

I trust 16Ton will be along in good time with an apology.

I’m intrigued by that passage. Had we won that day, the actual title would have been won by Rangers (who drew their game at Clyde). We would have wrestled the title from Celtic, but not for ourselves.

The newspaper reports at the time largely play down the trouble. The Herald even goes on to say that “the attitude of the majority of the big crowd in resenting such behaviour was largely instrumental in causing the rowdies to desist.”

[Toby]

Just now, 16Ton said:

Perhaps VT could have made it clear that that he had read it somewhere then rather than quote it as if it was his own considered opinion. Still don't buy the theory at all regardless of academic papers. When I read VT's post I didn't like you, think of checking my Morton books. Well done on knowing exactly where to find it btw. As for your other point regarding the Centenary book you sound like some of these people on quiz shows when they're asked a question they don't know. "But I wasn't born yet." I'm about the same age as you and I got a copy on ebay. There may even be some in the libraries. 

 

 

All you had to do was climb down from your high horse and apologise.

[16Ton]

Okay I acknowledge that VT was only quoting made up pish even if he didn't say so.

[16Ton]

17 minutes ago, AyrshireTon said:

"The inability to wrest the title away from the Glasgow giants 

Yeah I think these words cloud the issue a bit. The Morton fans may well have been pissed at Celtic and indeed Rangers domination of the league but there is no way in my opinion that they rioted because Morton didn't win the league. 

[Jamie_M]

1 hour ago, port-ton said:

That latest article says that Ayr and Kilmarnock also complained and Nicky Low said on twitter that Arbroath complained. That's 4 out of 9 teams complained about it

It's not my job to come up with suitable facilities, however if Diddy teams across the country can manage it then so should we as a full time professional club. 

I hadn't read the latest article citing the moans from Ayrshire.

I haven't been to many games recently, what are other clubs doing? Are some still using the concourse from keeping a stand empty? Our standard facilities are fine, but we are still in the Covid era.

We don't have an empty soulless shoebox of a stadium to do that. We can't afford to write off hospitality for another year. We got in portakabins as a temporary fix.

What else could we do? Say, sorry, no changing facilities. Use your bus or stop on the way and queue up for the disabled toilets in the Port Tesco.

The generator failing was unfortunate.

[vikingTON]

6 hours ago, AyrshireTon said:

I’m  probably being whooshed here, but we finished 1921-22 with two points fewer than 20-21, three fewer than 19-20 and were miles off the top of the league in all three cases.

This is revisionism of the most abject kind. Here is a full list of Morton's league finishes in the previous decade:

1911/12 - 6th

1912/13 - 13th

13/14 (no, not that one) - 4th

14/15 - 4th

15/16 - 3rd

16/17 - 2nd

17/18 - 4th

18/19 - 3rd

19/20 - 6th ("miles off the top of the league" apparently) 

20/21 - 9th

21/22 - 12th

That is the entire context that your Rain Man obsession with the table on the final game of the season is missing here. Morton winning the 1922 Scottish Cup was only unexpected because that team was demonstrably sinking into the 'fucking gash' pile at the time. Morton winning a league title and a cup were absolutely expected outcomes based on a decade of very high performance beforehand. 

[vikingTON]

1 hour ago, 16Ton said:

Yeah I think these words cloud the issue a bit. The Morton fans may well have been pissed at Celtic and indeed Rangers domination of the league but there is no way in my opinion that they rioted because Morton didn't win the league. 

So why do you think they rioted? At the prospect of Celtic winning the league with a draw, as opposed to the other outcome of Rangers winning it? Was that just their big team all along? 

Your argument really does not stand up to any logical scrutiny. If the fanbase considered themselves to be plucky, wee diddies with no expectation of success, then the final game would have just been an irrelevant procession. Just like when countless other teams have won a league title at Cappielow over the decades. 

The only thing that makes 1922 different is that it was the swansong for the home side after years of being the bridesmaid but never the bride in league football. It also explains why lifting the Scottish fucking Cup did not have the home crowd in a party mood just three weeks later. 

There is no credible explanation for that riot that does not involve the competitive resentment of the home fanbase. Which is why Saint Johnstone and Inverness have organised precisely zero incidents of major crowd unrest after their 'fairytale cup triumph'. 

[16Ton]

the riot happened because there were 23500 fans at a conservative estimate crammed into Cappielow with no segregation and then spilling out onto the streets. Then as now rival fans will fight in such circumstances the world over.  Morton were never in the title race that season and there was never any expectations to win the double. That's just your own revisionism at play. Yes there was resentment from Morton fans but it was aimed at the Celtic fans lording it over them

[AyrshireTon]

8 hours ago, vikingTON said:

This is revisionism of the most abject kind. Here is a full list of Morton's league finishes in the previous decade:

1911/12 - 6th

1912/13 - 13th

13/14 (no, not that one) - 4th

14/15 - 4th

15/16 - 3rd

16/17 - 2nd

17/18 - 4th

18/19 - 3rd

19/20 - 6th ("miles off the top of the league" apparently) 

20/21 - 9th

21/22 - 12th

That is the entire context that your Rain Man obsession with the table on the final game of the season is missing here. Morton winning the 1922 Scottish Cup was only unexpected because that team was demonstrably sinking into the 'fucking gash' pile at the time. Morton winning a league title and a cup were absolutely expected outcomes based on a decade of very high performance beforehand. 

We were particularly strong during wartime. This is likely our strongest ever team.

19-20 we did indeed finish 6th, but with 45 points, which was 26 points short of the league winners. Given that we played 11 games in April, trying to catch up on postponements, I doubt we were ever in with a shout of the league that season. In January 1920 we were already 15 points off the top spot.

Then we dipped and soon found ourselves relegated during the next decade.

Still not convinced by the riot argument. If the fans expected a title that much, why not riot as soon as we were out of the title race (couldn't tell you the exact game this happened, but I'd hazard a guess at sometime in February), rather than wait until a large away support was in Cappielow?

[port-ton]

Morton fans will find anything to argue amongst themselves about but the 1922 team is some going even by our standards. 

[vikingTON]

19 hours ago, 16Ton said:

the riot happened because there were 23500 fans at a conservative estimate crammed into Cappielow with no segregation and then spilling out onto the streets. Then as now rival fans will fight in such circumstances the world over.  Morton were never in the title race that season and there was never any expectations to win the double. That's just your own revisionism at play. Yes there was resentment from Morton fans but it was aimed at the Celtic fans lording it over them

Your last line completely discredits all your other, flailing like a Catherine Wheel suggestions - all of which are without any logical foundation btw. If Celtic fans were lording over Morton fans and Morton fans felt sufficient resentment at the destination of a Scottish League title that a full-scale riot broke out, then the fact that it was not the home team winning the league was quite clearly a relevant cause.

By comparison, the Old Form goading Motherwell or Saint Mirren fans on famous last-day title wins have produced precisely zero riots from the opposite fanbase, because there was no inherent trigger for this. 

Thanks for playing anyway and better luck next time. 

[AyrshireTon]

It may be worth pointing out that Celtic fans didn’t actually know they’d won the title that day until they got their trains back to Glasgow and found out the Rangers score from the evening papers (and possibly from the Clyde and Rangers fans who were arriving back from Shawfield).

[RealTonKid]

2 hours ago, AyrshireTon said:

It may be worth pointing out that Celtic fans didn’t actually know they’d won the title that day until they got their trains back to Glasgow and found out the Rangers score from the evening papers (and possibly from the Clyde and Rangers fans who were arriving back from Shawfield).

Exactly. Back then nobody would've had a clue who were the Champions at full-time. It would've taken an hour or two for news of the other score to filter through. (Morton 1-1 Celtic; Clyde 0-0 Rangers)

[bigB]

Just been shown the porta cabins by one of the directors absolutely nothing wrong with them apart from the generator failing at half time.