Rangers Tax Case

[Youngsa]

It would appear that Rangers want to be members of an organisation but, when the organisation punish them for breaking the rules they want to take the organisation to court. Maybe the SFA should just turn around and ban them totally and be done with it. After all Rangers haven't been slow, along with their cousins over in the east end, of telling the SFA that they are desperate to leave and go play their football elsewhere . It's time for the SFA to help them on their way and just ban them from playing in Scotland for a year. I'm sure all of us who follow our football in the lower leagues would notice any difference or care.

Rangers know there's a punishment coming and don't dispute that fact. What they have disputed is the SFA's right to implement the punishment they did.....and they were proved right. If the SFA weren't half the shambles that they are continually shown to be then they would have punished Rangers from the list of sanctions at their disposal from within their own Articles of Association and Rangers would have had no comeback apart from begging for mercy.......it really is that simple.

[Spot Ton]

Rangers know there's a punishment coming and don't dispute that fact. What they have disputed is the SFA's right to implement the punishment they did.....and they were proved right. If the SFA weren't half the shambles that they are continually shown to be then they would have punished Rangers from the list of sanctions at their disposal from within their own Articles of Association and Rangers would have had no comeback apart from begging for mercy.......it really is that simple.

Couldn't agree more, it is simple and it's time the SFA did the right thing for Scottish football as a whole.

[Toby]

Couldn't agree more, it is simple and it's time the SFA did the right thing for Scottish football as a whole.

 

As has been discussed earlier though, this isn't the best thing for Scottish football as a whole. Rangers, whether you like it or not are part of Scottish football- an odious and unsavoury part I accept, but a part nonetheless.

 

It's not the SFA's job to hang clubs out to dry, nor is it to wipe out any opportunity of the other Scottish club's that Rangers owe money to of ever seeing their money by expelling them. If you were to say expel them to get it up them then I could at least accept that as an honest if misguided viewpoint, but sugarcoating it by saying it is for the best is complete nonsense.

[Tonsilitis]

They would have a view as when Rangers went back to court to say that the SFA were blackmailing them into removing an acceptable punishment( suspension) with an unenforceable by law punishment(transfer embargo) then the SFA would be in more s*** than they knew what to do with.....and thats real life.

No they would not. They would see that the SFA have imposed a punishment (suspension) which is within their remit to do as determined by the Court of Session. That suspension can be for as long as the SFA choose from a day to indefinite. If Rangers then come to a voluntary agreement to accept a transfer ban if the SFA agree to lift the suspension, there is nothing illegal about that and its hardly blackmail. Its just the SFA using the tools available to them to fix a situation Rangers put themselves in.

 

 

[Alibi]

As has been discussed earlier though, this isn't the best thing for Scottish football as a whole. Rangers, whether you like it or not are part of Scottish football- an odious and unsavoury part I accept, but a part nonetheless.

 

It's not the SFA's job to hang clubs out to dry, nor is it to wipe out any opportunity of the other Scottish club's that Rangers owe money to of ever seeing their money by expelling them. If you were to say expel them to get it up them then I could at least accept that as an honest if misguided viewpoint, but sugarcoating it by saying it is for the best is complete nonsense.

 

So were Renton and St Bernards. Vale of Leven. Third Lanark and Clydebank and Airdrieonians. And Livingston, who are probably the best comparator in recent years. Things change and if Rangers have dug their own grave, so be it. Unless you want to allow a situation where you have introduced a de facto understanding that they will never be relegated.

[Toby]

So were Renton and St Bernards. Vale of Leven. Third Lanark and Clydebank and Airdrieonians. And Livingston, who are probably the best comparator in recent years. Things change and if Rangers have dug their own grave, so be it. Unless you want to allow a situation where you have introduced a de facto understanding that they will never be relegated.

 

How many of those clubs were deliberately expelled? Or how many of them were unable to continue and folded? Two completely different things. If Rangers are unable to continue so be it. That's outwith the hands of the governing body and there's nothing that can be done to save them- however, the SFA shouldn't be putting the final nail in the coffin of one of their members.

 

And if Renton, St. Bernards, Vale of Leven, Third Lanark, Clydebank and Airdrieonians were to ask for the opportunity to re-enter the league structure then I'd be more than happy for that to happen. I've been an advocate for a pyramid within Scottish football for years now. Clearly they'd have to start at the bottom playing on public parks about 10 tiers down in my ideal world, as would a new Rangers.

 

I've never said anything about clubs never being relegated- in Rangers case, quite the opposite in fact. What I have said is that the governing body should never expel a club for their crimes. Should Rangers survive, I've already recommended sanctions that I'd put in place. A relegation of 3 divisions with a 30 point sanction would probably be an unprecedented punishment in modern football. There's a difference between not relegating a club and not folding them. There's also a difference between punishing a club appropriately and killing it. I dare say you know that anyway, but because it's Rangers you'll refuse to take the blinkers off.

[Dougie]

How many of those clubs were deliberately expelled? Or how many of them were unable to continue and folded? Two completely different things. If Rangers are unable to continue so be it. That's outwith the hands of the governing body and there's nothing that can be done to save them- however, the SFA shouldn't be putting the final nail in the coffin of one of their members.

 

And if Renton, St. Bernards, Vale of Leven, Third Lanark, Clydebank and Airdrieonians were to ask for the opportunity to re-enter the league structure then I'd be more than happy for that to happen. I've been an advocate for a pyramid within Scottish football for years now. Clearly they'd have to start at the bottom playing on public parks about 10 tiers down in my ideal world, as would a new Rangers.

 

I've never said anything about clubs never being relegated- in Rangers case, quite the opposite in fact. What I have said is that the governing body should never expel a club for their crimes. Should Rangers survive, I've already recommended sanctions that I'd put in place. A relegation of 3 divisions with a 30 point sanction would probably be an unprecedented punishment in modern football. There's a difference between not relegating a club and not folding them. There's also a difference between punishing a club appropriately and killing it. I dare say you know that anyway, but because it's Rangers you'll refuse to take the blinkers off.

 

Absolutely spot on about all of the above. You are running rings around a few on here. Some Morton fans have really short term memories in terms of the financial mess there previous owner left them in. DOn't know how, Dougie Rae never tires of the kettle and the four pair of shorts stories. I also think a few need to be careful for what the wish for. Morton also have a substantial debt, that may be called in one day.

 

For what its worth, I hope Rangers fold. However I am in no doubt that if they do, they will be back in some shape or form, and back within Scottish Football in the blink of an eye. I dont hope they fold for the benefit of Scottish football though. I hope they fold because I dislike them. But the greates pleasue of all would be them being stripped of enough titles to make all those idiots with five star tattoos look feckin dafter than they already do!

[Rasta Ton]

Absolutely spot on about all of the above. You are running rings around a few on here. Some Morton fans have really short term memories in terms of the financial mess there previous owner left them in. DOn't know how, Dougie Rae never tires of the kettle and the four pair of shorts stories. I also think a few need to be careful for what the wish for. Morton also have a substantial debt, that may be called in one day.

 

For what its worth, I hope Rangers fold. However I am in no doubt that if they do, they will be back in some shape or form, and back within Scottish Football in the blink of an eye. I dont hope they fold for the benefit of Scottish football though. I hope they fold because I dislike them. But the greates pleasue of all would be them being stripped of enough titles to make all those idiots with five star tattoos look feckin dafter than they already do!

So it's OK for you to want them to go down the tubes because you dislike them and you're a glory hunter that hangs around the East End of Glasgow looking down your nose at Morton fans and Scottish Football in general yet any Morton fan that wants an end to the Gers has some sort of chip on their shoulder and should get over it?

 

Contradictions or what?

[Spot Ton]

How many of those clubs were deliberately expelled? Or how many of them were unable to continue and folded? Two completely different things. If Rangers are unable to continue so be it. That's outwith the hands of the governing body and there's nothing that can be done to save them- however, the SFA shouldn't be putting the final nail in the coffin of one of their members.

 

And if Renton, St. Bernards, Vale of Leven, Third Lanark, Clydebank and Airdrieonians were to ask for the opportunity to re-enter the league structure then I'd be more than happy for that to happen. I've been an advocate for a pyramid within Scottish football for years now. Clearly they'd have to start at the bottom playing on public parks about 10 tiers down in my ideal world, as would a new Rangers.

 

I've never said anything about clubs never being relegated- in Rangers case, quite the opposite in fact. What I have said is that the governing body should never expel a club for their crimes. Should Rangers survive, I've already recommended sanctions that I'd put in place. A relegation of 3 divisions with a 30 point sanction would probably be an unprecedented punishment in modern football. There's a difference between not relegating a club and not folding them. There's also a difference between punishing a club appropriately and killing it. I dare say you know that anyway, but because it's Rangers you'll refuse to take the blinkers off.

 

Go read the SFA'S Articles of Association and count the number of times Rangers gave two fingers to the SFA.

If your a member of any club or association anything that has rules and you break the rules you should get punished. Rangers have been giving the SFA two fingers for years. "We want to play in the Premiership" being the obvious.

So what happens if the SFA give Rangers a easy ride, which is what they have done so far, it wont only be Celtic and Rangers that think they are bigger than the association, everybody will think they can have a go and before you know it we will have UEFA and FIFA laying down the rules and barring Scotland from all European and international competitions.

The SFA have to come down hard on Rangers or else the whole of Scottish football will pay the price for their cheating and blatant disregard of fairplay, sportsmanship and integrity.

 

And they are not alone, there are other clubs who are sailing close to the wind.

 

[Dougie]

So it's OK for you to want them to go down the tubes because you dislike them and you're a glory hunter that hangs around the East End of Glasgow looking down your nose at Morton fans and Scottish Football in general yet any Morton fan that wants an end to the Gers has some sort of chip on their shoulder and should get over it?

 

Contradictions or what?

 

Rangers are the main rivals of Celtic. They robbed Celitc of Titles and therefore revenue by there actions. There is no contradiction in that.

 

I am rarely in Scotland, I follow Celtic from afar. I have many good friends that are Morton Supporters. Granted not many of them post on this board.

 

The point is many Morton fans are proclaiming that the end of Rangers would benefit Scottish football in the whole. I don't see this great Scottish football fantasy you all crave working. Instead I see a league on the level of the League of Ireland, as TV Revenue, Commercial Revenue and ultimately the Scottish Co-efficient drops. As Toby says, if you want them to die because you dont like them. Just say that. Don't hide it behind some made up fantasy that you have.

[bigdoc1874]

Our reality is that one day scottish football fans will support their clubs not for inbred religious, sectarian motives but for a true connection to that club, **** tv rights, **** corporate sponsorship, **** im a proddy/ caffolic, **** the three governing bodies with their jobs for the boys committees.

[vikingTON]

Instead I see a league on the level of the League of Ireland, as TV Revenue, Commercial Revenue and ultimately the Scottish Co-efficient drops.

 

I see unsubstantiated bollocks. The Scottish First Division has a higher average attendance than the League of Ireland, excluding as it does the currently most successful provincial sides, and the bulk of the large city teams. As a consequence, there is absolutely no prospect of the domestic game in Scotland being dragged down to the level of the League of Ireland. A league where Gary Twigg is viewed as a superstar, no less.

[Alibi]

If Scottish football is to be about the OF, with the rest being nonentities, then it is not worth saving. Would be nice if they'd both die off and then we could maybe have a league that is of some interest to all football lovers. Personally I haven't watched an SPL game on TV in many years. It's boring. Scottish football died years ago above SFL1 level.

[Dougie]

I see unsubstantiated bollocks. The Scottish First Division has a higher average attendance than the League of Ireland, excluding as it does the currently most successful provincial sides, and the bulk of the large city teams. As a consequence, there is absolutely no prospect of the domestic game in Scotland being dragged down to the level of the League of Ireland. A league where Gary Twigg is viewed as a superstar, no less.

 

Shamrock rovers had a much more successful european season this year than any scottish club has in years. Outwith the old firm. In the last 18 months i have witnessed first hand grass rokts football in the west of ireland and it is light years ahead of the west of scotland. Despite of healthy competition from gaa and rugby.

 

Success cant be judged on attendance levels. That is pure bollocks

[Toby]

Go read the SFA'S Articles of Association and count the number of times Rangers gave two fingers to the SFA.

If your a member of any club or association anything that has rules and you break the rules you should get punished. Rangers have been giving the SFA two fingers for years. "We want to play in the Premiership" being the obvious.

So what happens if the SFA give Rangers a easy ride, which is what they have done so far, it wont only be Celtic and Rangers that think they are bigger than the association, everybody will think they can have a go and before you know it we will have UEFA and FIFA laying down the rules and barring Scotland from all European and international competitions.

The SFA have to come down hard on Rangers or else the whole of Scottish football will pay the price for their cheating and blatant disregard of fairplay, sportsmanship and integrity.

 

And they are not alone, there are other clubs who are sailing close to the wind.

 

Oh dear, where to start with this absolute disaster of a post?

 

First of all, before telling me to "Go read" any rule books, you could perhaps do me the courtesy of reading my posts on the matter- you know, the ones that said they should get punished? Don't know how many times I have to repeat myself in saying that there is a difference between punishment and expulsion. As for giving Rangers an easy ride, if you read the reply to one of my posts outlining the sanctions I would impose on the top of this very page of the thread you'll notice another poster observing that,

 

"What you propose would no doubt ensure this sort of thing would not happen in the future."

 

Of course, I take on board your point about Rangers sticking two fingers up to the authorities by trying to piss off to the Premiership. Let's kick them out on those principles. So what league do you propose Morton play their football in next season? It wasn't very long ago that I remember sitting in the Cappielow board room and questioning Mr Rae about the morals of his proposal for Morton to discard the rest of the SFL and form SPL 2 with the other First Division clubs. If we're going to sit and slate clubs for having no thoughts for their weaker peers, I'd suggest we look slightly closer to home than Govan. People in glass houses and all that....

 

Keep kidding yourself on that there's no middle ground between letting them off and expelling them completely, but there are a whole host of sanctions that could be implemented which aren't simply designed to fit with the agendas of people who merely want to see Rangers go bust because they're a shower of bastards.

 

Rangers are the main rivals of Celtic. They robbed Celitc of Titles and therefore revenue by there actions. There is no contradiction in that.

 

I am rarely in Scotland, I follow Celtic from afar. I have many good friends that are Morton Supporters. Granted not many of them post on this board.

 

The point is many Morton fans are proclaiming that the end of Rangers would benefit Scottish football in the whole. I don't see this great Scottish football fantasy you all crave working. Instead I see a league on the level of the League of Ireland, as TV Revenue, Commercial Revenue and ultimately the Scottish Co-efficient drops. As Toby says, if you want them to die because you dont like them. Just say that. Don't hide it behind some made up fantasy that you have.

 

Not going to kid on I agree with your own wishes to see them fold or be expelled but at least you've given an honest answer that your wishes are clouded by prejudice on the matter. Of course though, you do realise that prejudice isn't something that's in the make up of a Morton supporter so could never be a reason for them wishing ill on another club. It's all in the name of fair play.......

 

If Scottish football is to be about the OF, with the rest being nonentities, then it is not worth saving. Would be nice if they'd both die off and then we could maybe have a league that is of some interest to all football lovers. Personally I haven't watched an SPL game in many years. It's boring. Scottish football died years ago above SFL1 level.

 

Oh, behave!

 

Nobody has said Scottish football's all about the Old Firm, stop putting words into mouths. First of all your argument was that you want them out for cheating- then you accepted you despise them but that's not your prime motivation for kicking them out. Now they're too big and stifling competition? This isn't a wee gathering of the glitterati of Dumfries and Galloway small business owners chez Alibi when you can just kick out the newsagent because he bought a season ticket for Ibrox instead of a raffle ticket to sponsor Queens' jerseys for the season.

 

Of course though, I'm sure the Motherwell fans will agree with your educated views on the upper echelons of the Scottish game as they embark on a Champions League campaign. And the Hearts fans after their dismal Scottish Cup run that culminated in a tedious trousering of their hated rivals. That must've been grim for them. Oh, and the Killie fans who completed the full set of domestic honours by beating their local rivals in a never to be repeated fixture at Hampden before turning over the best team in the land after a dreadful goalkeeping performance from Cammy Bell that somehow gained them the League Cup and him a man of the match award. Aye, you're right, everything above the First Divsion's shite.

 

Shamrock rovers had a much more successful european season this year than any scottish club has in years. Outwith the old firm. In the last 18 months i have witnessed first hand grass rokts football in the west of ireland and it is light years ahead of the west of scotland. Despite of healthy competition from gaa and rugby.

 

Success cant be judged on attendance levels. That is pure bollocks

 

Depends on the scale you're referring to when you say "years". Aberdeen's run in 2008 eclipsed Shamrock Rovers' run last term and I would argue that Motherwell have also had a couple of decent runs in the last couple of years, getting past two rounds before coming up short against Steaua and Odense.

 

Shamrock managed eight games in last season's Europa League, winning only one, and even that was after extra time, albeit gloriously against Partizan. Yes, they eclipsed Motherwell's achievements and deserve all the credit they got for it, but I wouldn't say they were much more successful.

 

Regarding the quality of the leagues, as vT mentions Gary Twigg, I always bring up Greacen, who wasn't great with us yet a stand out that got to represent the League at the pre-season tournament with Man City, Inter and Celtic. I'd still argue the SPL is well ahead on standard, but without Rangers and Celtic where would we be left?

 

Looking at the current national team, Fletcher and Bannan came through the ranks at English clubs, but would the likes of McFadden, Gordon, Hutton, Miller, Steven Fletcher have been given the opportunities to get moves to the Premier League were they not exposed to the Old Firm?

 

Careful what we wish for.

[Youngsa]

No they would not. They would see that the SFA have imposed a punishment (suspension) which is within their remit to do as determined by the Court of Session. That suspension can be for as long as the SFA choose from a day to indefinite. If Rangers then come to a voluntary agreement to accept a transfer ban if the SFA agree to lift the suspension, there is nothing illegal about that and its hardly blackmail. Its just the SFA using the tools available to them to fix a situation Rangers put themselves in.

 

I will choose to disagree with your view of the matter and would further suggest that if you think Rangers would accept an illegal punishment on a voluntary basis you are living in cloud cuckoo land. It would also appear that the SFA have also now accepted that this strand of punishment is a dead duck.

 

[Tonsilitis]

I will choose to disagree with your view of the matter and would further suggest that if you think Rangers would accept an illegal punishment on a voluntary basis you are living in cloud cuckoo land. It would also appear that the SFA have also now accepted that this strand of punishment is a dead duck.

What the SFA have said is that they will now go back and, as the court ruled, reconsider the punishment and dish one out which is within the menu of items in their rules. Those options include suspension and I think that is what they may be looking at. My point is that Rangers may prefer a player signing embargo on a voluntary basis. I agree that the court ruling means an embargo can't be forced on them but they may choose it on a voluntary basis as being the lessor of two evils.

 

On another point, could they be suspended for half a season? Is that practical? They would be allowed back in after the other clubs had all played each other home and away and with still the 10 or more point deduction. That would place them in the bottom half at the split and the deduction would almost guarantee relegation. The rest of the teams would have two matches less over the season.

[TaunTon]

I will choose to disagree with your view of the matter and would further suggest that if you think Rangers would accept an illegal punishment on a voluntary basis you are living in cloud cuckoo land. It would also appear that the SFA have also now accepted that this strand of punishment is a dead duck.

 

The idea that you have a rule book which specifies the penalties that can be applied for an infraction of the rules and you then decided to invent a new punishment without reference to the membership of the association sums up perfectly just how moribund and incompetent the SFA are. Rangers should be hammered for their rule breaches but within the list of agreed penalties.

[Rossco]

Shamrock rovers had a much more successful european season this year than any scottish club has in years.

 

One decent European Season in how many years of trying?

 

Shamrock Rovers are not a million miles away from Morton.

 

They were shafted by owners & had ground taken away from them forcing them to be nomads for numerous years (remember Scott wanting to move us to Airdrie?)

 

They have fought back to survive & must have been a huge sigh of relief when they won the league a few years back (kind of like us when we won the 3rd)

 

Vikington mentioned higher average attendances than league of Ireland this is despite them adapting to Summer football & there is a pro/con argument for summer football in this country & it also could be argued that is why Shamrock Rovers done so well in Europe as the season was in full flow.

 

If Rangers going bust is what it takes for Scottish football to be competitive then so be it.

 

If clubs fold & by default teams like Morton etc benefit then it can only be good for the game in general.

 

Yes it will be a struggle & standard of player will be poor but let's face it Scottish football is in decline anyway.

[vikingTON]

Success cant be judged on attendance levels. That is pure bollocks

 

You're the one who brought up TV and commercial revenue. Gate reciepts are far more important to the finances of a football club than the other two. As a consequence, Scottish clubs will always be able to offer far more money to generally better players than a minority sport in a smaller country. That you're now clinging onto Shamrock Rovers' solitary good run in a cup competition highlights how weak the rest of your argument is.

 

Scottish football has been punching far above its weight in Europe for decades and Rangers going will make no difference to a period of sustained decline of the country's standing in Europe to where it ought to be. Rangers themselves have won only one of their last 25 matches in Europe, so it's clear to see that they're the diddies who have been dragging down the co-efficient.

 

Domestically, after a period of re-adjustment, there will be little to no difference. Scottish football is already one of the highest-attended leagues in Europe per capita and the loss of Rangers will make little difference, whether those fans slink back to the provincial sides they deserted a generation ago or not.