chrissiboi Posted June 12, 2012 Share Posted June 12, 2012 Just watched Newsnight, the blogger guy with his blue tinted specs on kept a straight face when he said Rangers have been punished severely. What punishment the 10 point deduction and a fine what other punishment have they incurred. The journo seemed pretty clueless. Green seems to be deliberately filling Rangers supporters with misinformation and in some cases downright falsehoods. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tonsilitis Posted June 13, 2012 Share Posted June 13, 2012 Mr Green says that players will be in breach of contract if they do not transfer to Newco. Either he is just out of his depth here or he is a liar. TUPE is about protecting employees not employers and gives the former the right of choice as to whether to work for Newco or not. If he chooses not to, his contract is ripped up and he is deemed to have resigned and not to have been dismissed. Mr Green says he will raise £30m in a new share issue by the end of July - impossible if what he has in mind is a public offering. If its private, why have these people not come forward to help in acquiring the business so far? I tend to agree that the SPL will bend over backwards to try to keep them in the league but there is a possibility that a few chairmen have serious doubts about how to vote. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dive! Posted June 13, 2012 Share Posted June 13, 2012 Players are all free agents and cannot be forced to sign for NewCo If a company is acquired by asset purchase rather than by share purchase (as in this instance), would an employee who is given an offer of employment by a Newco fall under the remit of TUPE? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TAFKAC Posted June 13, 2012 Share Posted June 13, 2012 The TUPE claims are astonishing, and being supported by the administrator. As Nick says, TUPE is there to protect employees and not employers (I had to outsource a whole section in my last job, and it's a painful process). Swap Green for Peden and I can see a pattern emerging. "I learned long ago, never to wrestle with a pig. You get dirty, and besides, the pig likes it." George Bernard Shaw Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Youngsa Posted June 13, 2012 Share Posted June 13, 2012 Mr Green says that players will be in breach of contract if they do not transfer to Newco. Either he is just out of his depth here or he is a liar. TUPE is about protecting employees not employers and gives the former the right of choice as to whether to work for Newco or not. If he chooses not to, his contract is ripped up and he is deemed to have resigned and not to have been dismissed. Mr Green says he will raise £30m in a new share issue by the end of July - impossible if what he has in mind is a public offering. If its private, why have these people not come forward to help in acquiring the business so far? I tend to agree that the SPL will bend over backwards to try to keep them in the league but there is a possibility that a few chairmen have serious doubts about how to vote. Indeed....not sure whether he doesn't have a clue or whether its all bluster to try and fool the fans.....the old 'look I tried but the big bad courts, HMRC and everyone else'.... I expect someone to make Green an offer he can't refuse of around £10m. Dirty job done and a nice profit for walking away. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tonsilitis Posted June 13, 2012 Share Posted June 13, 2012 If a company is acquired by asset purchase rather than by share purchase (as in this instance), would an employee who is given an offer of employment by a Newco fall under the remit of TUPE? TUPE applies when the business activities cease to be carried out by one employer and are carried out by the Newco. There is absolutely no doubt that TUPE applies to Rangers Newco. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spot Ton Posted June 13, 2012 Share Posted June 13, 2012 I can't see Green or his backers hanging around much longer. I'm sure his TUPE statement was about as much to reassure them as it was to pull the wool over the fans so that they will buy season tickets. The blue knights could yet make a comeback which I think in the long term would be the best outcome for Rangers fans. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TonInDublin Posted June 13, 2012 Share Posted June 13, 2012 I posted this elsewherer - can someone tell me if its technically correct or did I miss something obvious - cos right now, this looks like a sweetheart deal for Green and Rangers .... Looking at the decision yesterday to refuse the CVA for Rangers and it's a great example of how ****ed up the financial system is. They have now been liquidated, but can reinvent themselves by paying only £5.5M. The taxman walks away from all of the money he would have been owed (about £90M), and the rest of the creditors (including the taxman) are left to squabble over £5.5M. But the people who put up the £5.5m now own, lock stock and barrel, Ibrox Park, Murray Park, the car parks etc. So, put another way, they have paid 5% of the debt, own all of the assets, and with just the £8.5M they declared, far less the £30M they showed they have - they now have millions to pay in salaries and transfer fees, irrespective of what division they'll be in - which, by the way, will be the SPL cos the chairmen are spineless. If we did it we'd be in the nick in a heartbeat Two Uniteds but the soul is one, as the Busby Babes carry on. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Satans Husband Posted June 13, 2012 Share Posted June 13, 2012 Sky have already said they'll still show the SPL with or without Rangers, have they not? Have they? I assume/hope that will be with a renegotiated deal worth about a tenth of the one that currently stands. Of course I'm happy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Youngsa Posted June 13, 2012 Share Posted June 13, 2012 I posted this elsewherer - can someone tell me if its technically correct or did I miss something obvious - cos right now, this looks like a sweetheart deal for Green and Rangers .... Looking at the decision yesterday to refuse the CVA for Rangers and it's a great example of how ****ed up the financial system is. They have now been liquidated, but can reinvent themselves by paying only £5.5M. The taxman walks away from all of the money he would have been owed (about £90M), and the rest of the creditors (including the taxman) are left to squabble over £5.5M. But the people who put up the £5.5m now own, lock stock and barrel, Ibrox Park, Murray Park, the car parks etc. So, put another way, they have paid 5% of the debt, own all of the assets, and with just the £8.5M they declared, far less the £30M they showed they have - they now have millions to pay in salaries and transfer fees, irrespective of what division they'll be in - which, by the way, will be the SPL cos the chairmen are spineless. If we did it we'd be in the nick in a heartbeat Yes would probably bethe short answer. I believe liqiudation gives HMRC greater powers to chase those reponsible for previous wrong doing. Whyte will be a minor fish but I suspect HMRC have gone this way to pursue Murray and the MIH Group of companies. Unsure as to the legality of the Administrators deal with Green as I'm sure HMRC and others will be pissed if someone comes in offering £10m for the assets and make a tidy profit which I think will happen. HMRC will be content that they continue to get tax going forward from the Newco and will probably be all over the Rangers books for years to come. I don't think Green has managed to show anyone he has anywhere near £30m stashed away and I think this is where his deal may crumble. Like it or not its the law of the land as it stands and is probably followed by countless companies every day. The figures might be higher in this instance but when it looks like HMRC may be in bother for letting Vodafone off with billions it makes the situation at Ibrox look like you havent paid your window cleaner for a few weeks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Greacen2000 Posted June 13, 2012 Share Posted June 13, 2012 They are not allowed to use a name so similar to the previous name as to suggest a connection without the leave of the court. The court would want the liquidator to have no objection and in practice, the liquidator will want paid not to object. My understanding was that the company being liquidated is rangers plc (formed 1899) and not rangers football club(formed 1874). Therefore they will still be able to continue as rfc 1874, just with a different entity. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chrissiboi Posted June 13, 2012 Share Posted June 13, 2012 I posted this elsewherer - can someone tell me if its technically correct or did I miss something obvious - cos right now, this looks like a sweetheart deal for Green and Rangers .... Looking at the decision yesterday to refuse the CVA for Rangers and it's a great example of how ****ed up the financial system is. They have now been liquidated, but can reinvent themselves by paying only £5.5M. The taxman walks away from all of the money he would have been owed (about £90M), and the rest of the creditors (including the taxman) are left to squabble over £5.5M. But the people who put up the £5.5m now own, lock stock and barrel, Ibrox Park, Murray Park, the car parks etc. So, put another way, they have paid 5% of the debt, own all of the assets, and with just the £8.5M they declared, far less the £30M they showed they have - they now have millions to pay in salaries and transfer fees, irrespective of what division they'll be in - which, by the way, will be the SPL cos the chairmen are spineless. If we did it we'd be in the nick in a heartbeat From what is in the Herald BDO can open up every aspect of Rangers financial dealings back to 2009, they also have the power to tear up Green's deal if they believe the assets have been under valued. Remember although HMRC has made a statement about the business and football remaining at Ibrox that does not mean anything they will be awaiting BDO to uncover all those skeletons. Remember Duff & Phelps were rushed in before HMRC got in there now they have someone who the Taxman wanted. While it may not be ideal but at least those who are the wrongdoers may get their comeuppance. HMRC must see their duty in discouraging those who blatantly avoid paying tax, PAYE and NI as a warning to others. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tonsilitis Posted June 13, 2012 Share Posted June 13, 2012 From what is in the Herald BDO can open up every aspect of Rangers financial dealings back to 2009, they also have the power to tear up Green's deal if they believe the assets have been under valued. Remember although HMRC has made a statement about the business and football remaining at Ibrox that does not mean anything they will be awaiting BDO to uncover all those skeletons. Remember Duff & Phelps were rushed in before HMRC got in there now they have someone who the Taxman wanted. While it may not be ideal but at least those who are the wrongdoers may get their comeuppance. HMRC must see their duty in discouraging those who blatantly avoid paying tax, PAYE and NI as a warning to others. BDO can overturn the deal but the trouble is, the further away from the day the deal was done you get, the more difficult it is to do that. Duff and Phelps are in control of when the liquidator is appointed and say that they will stay in office for another 6/10 weeks in order to conclude the deal with Green. The only way round this would be for HMRC to go to court and ask the court to appoint the liquidator in the public interest. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alibi Posted June 13, 2012 Share Posted June 13, 2012 BDO can overturn the deal but the trouble is, the further away from the day the deal was done you get, the more difficult it is to do that. Duff and Phelps are in control of when the liquidator is appointed and say that they will stay in office for another 6/10 weeks in order to conclude the deal with Green. The only way round this would be for HMRC to go to court and ask the court to appoint the liquidator in the public interest. Surely HMRC won't allow that - it's asset stripping pure and simple? "Any nation given the opportunity to regain its national sovereignty and which then rejects it is so far beneath contempt that it is hard to put words to it." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tonsilitis Posted June 13, 2012 Share Posted June 13, 2012 Surely HMRC won't allow that - it's asset stripping pure and simple? I have mentioned the option open to creditors. It's what iwould go for because the price being paid is just derisory Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Greacen2000 Posted June 13, 2012 Share Posted June 13, 2012 Surely HMRC won't allow that - it's asset stripping pure and simple? I'm sure that if other suitors were queueing up with higher offers then it might be a different situation, but in lieu of that, the assets are worth whatever the prospective buyer is willing to pay for them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rasta Ton Posted June 13, 2012 Share Posted June 13, 2012 But there's the thing. HMRC are giving the newco owners a clean slate probably in recognition of the fact that football clubs when run properly have plenty to contribute to the tax man. They have closed down the previous regime to prove a point and to allow them to chase the previous incumbents to the ends of the earth. The Rangers fans have moaned that Whyte and Murray have walked away unscathed - watch this space on that one. FIRST DIVISION RUNNERS UP 2012/13 Hey Man - Enough of your Stupidness Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alibi Posted June 13, 2012 Share Posted June 13, 2012 I'm sure that if other suitors were queueing up with higher offers then it might be a different situation, but in lieu of that, the assets are worth whatever the prospective buyer is willing to pay for them. Then they should test the market. Not stitch up an insider deal. "Any nation given the opportunity to regain its national sovereignty and which then rejects it is so far beneath contempt that it is hard to put words to it." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
.:BrIDo:. Posted June 14, 2012 Share Posted June 14, 2012 Aberdeen to vote against. http://www.pressandjournal.co.uk/Article.aspx/2811258/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mick Posted June 14, 2012 Share Posted June 14, 2012 Then they should test the market. Not stitch up an insider deal. I accept your point - that the assets seem to be very undervalued - but the reality is BDO will be empowered to make a determination of whether this was actually the case. Green's was the best offer that had come forward by the deadline. However, to date, he has been unable to get all funding in place...so he may not be home and hosed yet. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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