Spot Ton Posted June 8, 2012 Share Posted June 8, 2012 I think the CVA will fail, but the point in bold is not the case. The big tax case is in relation to sums owed prior to Insolvency and it will be included in the CVA, if passed. I'm obviously confused. I thought the big tax case was separate and still to be decided and was not included. I really can't see the taxman going for this as the amount paid out on the CVA will be a pittance. No matter I still think liquidation will be the only option. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tonsilitis Posted June 8, 2012 Share Posted June 8, 2012 I'm obviously confused. I thought the big tax case was separate and still to be decided and was not included. I really can't see the taxman going for this as the amount paid out on the CVA will be a pittance. No matter I still think liquidation will be the only option. The debts dealt with by any insolvency process are those that exist at the date that process starts. If the big tax case goes against Rangers, it relates to matters that happened prior to the admin starting and so anything awarded is included. HMRC have a specialist unit that considers how to vote in CVAs and amongst the things they consider are 1) Is this the best return to creditors available? 2) does this company have a history of tax non compliance such as non payment of PAYE? 3) is there tax evasion involved e.g. Non legal EBTs? Not sure Rangers CVA looks good in any of the above criteria! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stevie Aitken's Love Child Posted June 12, 2012 Share Posted June 12, 2012 HMRC reject CVA proposal, Rangers to enter liquidation imminently! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flyerton Posted June 12, 2012 Share Posted June 12, 2012 HMRC reject CVA proposal, Rangers to enter liquidation imminently! Yeah, it's all going down today: http://news.stv.tv/scotland/105837-rangers...jected-by-hmrc/ What happens next? Ibrox, Murray Park, The Players, Club name? Will they get relegated? Edit: Rangers statement on this news: http://news.stv.tv/scotland/105843-in-full...on-cva-failure/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Satans Husband Posted June 12, 2012 Share Posted June 12, 2012 I've largely been avoiding reading about this as there is so much column space taken up with little fact, but this looks fairly hilarious. It's now time to see if the various SPL Chairmen actually meant anything with their posturing. It really won't surprise me if all of them backtrack and vote in the Newco. I'd love it if they didn't though and the SPL TV deal went tits up. Of course I'm happy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bob_the_builder Posted June 12, 2012 Share Posted June 12, 2012 They'll be in the SPL next season, under a newco. The SPL chairmen have as much backbone as jellyfish and will vote them in asap. They'll never risk the wrath of Sky TV. here today, gone to hell Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mick Posted June 12, 2012 Share Posted June 12, 2012 The debts dealt with by any insolvency process are those that exist at the date that process starts. If the big tax case goes against Rangers, it relates to matters that happened prior to the admin starting and so anything awarded is included. HMRC have a specialist unit that considers how to vote in CVAs and amongst the things they consider are 1) Is this the best return to creditors available? 2) does this company have a history of tax non compliance such as non payment of PAYE? 3) is there tax evasion involved e.g. Non legal EBTs? Not sure Rangers CVA looks good in any of the above criteria! The right decision from HMRC and absolutely consistent with the position they've taken in most other football cases they've been involved in. Perhaps you can help me to understand what happens next... the £5.5m is for what exactly? Is it for the assets of the Club (Ibrox, Murray Park etc)? If so, presumably BDO (liquidator), on behalf of HMRC, can challenge the valuation of these assets? How can a CVA proposal that offers £8.5m of a creditor pot, also have embedded within it, a clause that states if the CVA is knocked back by the creditors it’s supposed to protect, then some knight/crook [delete as appropriate] can buy the assets for £5.5m..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chrissiboi Posted June 12, 2012 Share Posted June 12, 2012 The whole thing is a mess but is a stark warning to all football fans of every club to be critically aware of decisions made be custodians of the club can lead to the death of the club. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tonsilitis Posted June 12, 2012 Share Posted June 12, 2012 The right decision from HMRC and absolutely consistent with the position they've taken in most other football cases they've been involved in. Perhaps you can help me to understand what happens next... the £5.5m is for what exactly? Is it for the assets of the Club (Ibrox, Murray Park etc)? If so, presumably BDO (liquidator), on behalf of HMRC, can challenge the valuation of these assets? How can a CVA proposal that offers £8.5m of a creditor pot, also have embedded within it, a clause that states if the CVA is knocked back by the creditors it’s supposed to protect, then some knight/crook [delete as appropriate] can buy the assets for £5.5m..... What happens now is that a petition is lodged in court seeking a winding up order by the sdministrators. They are committed to propose BDO in terms of their agreement with HMRC The court will issue what is called First Deliverance which gives 8 days for any objections and they might appoint provisional liquidators in the meantime to look after the shop. That will be BDO also. Implications include; Players are all free agents and cannot be forced to sign for NewCo. I assume that ownership of the property has not transferred yet and I do not see how a deal made by the Administrators is binding on the liquidator so everything may be up for grabs again and re-enter the likes of the blue knights. The football authorities will be forced to address their nightmare NewCo scenario. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chrissiboi Posted June 12, 2012 Share Posted June 12, 2012 What happens now is that a petition is lodged in court seeking a winding up order by the sdministrators. They are committed to propose BDO in terms of their agreement with HMRC The court will issue what is called First Deliverance which gives 8 days for any objections and they might appoint provisional liquidators in the meantime to look after the shop. That will be BDO also. Implications include; Players are all free agents and cannot be forced to sign for NewCo. I assume that ownership of the property has not transferred yet and I do not see how a deal made by the Administrators is binding on the liquidator so everything may be up for grabs again and re-enter the likes of the blue knights. The football authorities will be forced to address their nightmare NewCo scenario. That will probably be enough to scare off Green. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flyerton Posted June 12, 2012 Share Posted June 12, 2012 Re: Newco - Rangers have to pick a new name? Correct? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bigdoc1874 Posted June 12, 2012 Share Posted June 12, 2012 Who are newco ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ScappaTon Posted June 12, 2012 Share Posted June 12, 2012 Just found this, unbelievable: The Debt HMRC £93m Ticketus £26.7m Debenture owners £7.7m Strathclyde Police £51,882 Scottish Ambulance Service £8,438 Culture and Sport Glasgow £10,338 Glasgow City Council £7,000 Argyll and Bute Council £406 Edinburgh City Council £90 Hearts £800,000 Dunfermline Athletic £83,370 Dundee United £65,981 Celtic £40,337 Inverness Caledonian Thistle £39,805 Manchester City £328,248 Chelsea £238,345 Arsenal £136,560 Rapid Vienna £1,011,763 St Etienne £252,212 Palermo £205,513 Orebro £150,000 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tonsilitis Posted June 12, 2012 Share Posted June 12, 2012 Re: Newco - Rangers have to pick a new name? Correct? They are not allowed to use a name so similar to the previous name as to suggest a connection without the leave of the court. The court would want the liquidator to have no objection and in practice, the liquidator will want paid not to object. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
garymcc1874 Posted June 12, 2012 Share Posted June 12, 2012 Sky have already said they'll still show the SPL with or without Rangers, have they not? When they get rejected from the SPL who goes up? Dunfermline or Dundee? TTG JIM!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ayrstorm Posted June 12, 2012 Share Posted June 12, 2012 is that debt list still accurate - did they not have some payments to Dunfermline and maybe even United and Cally? Surely liquidation and that debt never being cleared is very bad news for Hearts and Rapid Vienna - would think the other clubs could cope with there losses but that must really hurt those two. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stubaws Posted June 12, 2012 Share Posted June 12, 2012 it's unbelievable they have been allowed to continue signing players whilst so much money is still owed to other clubs. how football could be allowed to run that way i'll never know! the main reason for the administration and inevitable liquidation, however, is the unpaid tax relating to the past year whilst Craig Whyte has been in charge. This is where i do sympathise with the club and the fans - whilst he (and probably with the knowledge of his allies on the board) has refused to pay tax, it's the club that goes to the wall and he gets off pretty much scot free (he's hardly likely to re-invest in a football club is he?). i don't understand why all the bills unpaid since he took office are not landing on his doorstep and he either has to pay up or be declared bankrupt. how can 1 charlatan single handedly oversee the demise of one of Scotland's biggest football clubs by simply refusing to pay bills? can it really be so straight forward? if so then i'm saving up to buy st mirren Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ScappaTon Posted June 12, 2012 Share Posted June 12, 2012 The whole of Scottish Football has to re-invent itself, from the bottom up. That will not happen if Rangers as a New-Co are admitted to the SPL. Best case scenario is for New-Co to go to the bottom of the 3rd Division and rip up the Sky deal. Maybe we'll then see folk getting off their arse and supporting football. Better pricing structures and clubs living within their own means. Scottish Football is dead in the current climate, relying on TV Deals and the Old Firm propping up SPL finances. Morton will be too unless something drastically is done. But I fear the Self Preservation League will do as it says on the tin! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dougie Posted June 12, 2012 Share Posted June 12, 2012 Sky have already said they'll still show the SPL with or without Rangers, have they not? When they get rejected from the SPL who goes up? Dunfermline or Dundee? The rules suggest Dunfermline should stay up. However, rules are there to be broken. Wasn't a million years ago they were for Aberdeen and they will be again. I expect a Newco to take its place in the SP Hell next year. Hope not, but doubt that the other clubs outwith Celtic will want to punish themselves. They will lose there history though. They will eventually accept the 12 month transfer embargo(not doing so will lead to them being expelled, and they are in no position to make demands now).As was said earlier, all the players can now become free agents if they so choose. So other than the likes of Lee McCulloch, they will be cannon fodder next year. Yo ho ho and off we go. Its party time and the drinks will flow. Bye Bye Rangers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom_McB Posted June 12, 2012 Share Posted June 12, 2012 The rules suggest Dunfermline should stay up. However, rules are there to be broken. Wasn't a million years ago they were for Aberdeen and they will be again. I expect a Newco to take its place in the SP Hell next year. Hope not, but doubt that the other clubs outwith Celtic will want to punish themselves. They will lose there history though. They will eventually accept the 12 month transfer embargo(not doing so will lead to them being expelled, and they are in no position to make demands now).As was said earlier, all the players can now become free agents if they so choose. So other than the likes of Lee McCulloch, they will be cannon fodder next year. Yo ho ho and off we go. Its party time and the drinks will flow. Bye Bye Rangers. Quite, lets hope the green plastic paddies go the same way. "Of all tyrannies, a tyranny exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It may be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end, for they do so with the approval of their consciences."The goal of Socialism is Communism- Lenin Je ne suis pas Marxiste : K Marx Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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