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The 'hampden Vs. Murrayfield' Debate


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#1 BishopLenBrennan

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Posted 11 September 2018 - 12:33 PM

On a related note, the SFA are due to announce their decision to stay at Hampden. 

 

Call my cynical, but I don't think the SFA have any intention of moving to Murrayfield permanently, and use this debate every time the lease is up from renewal to get a better lease arrangement with Queens Park*. Now the long term future is secure, I'd like to see a serious plan to redevelop Hampden into a fit-for-purpose modern stadium. Get the stands pulled in closer to the pitch. 

 

*Which is excellent, as those cunts should be rotting in the amateur leagues where they belong. 


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#2 BishopLenBrennan

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Posted 11 September 2018 - 12:55 PM

There are strong rumours of Hampden being redeveloped as part of the new lease. I'd like to go for something along the lines of the renovation of the Stuttgart Arena. 

 

Before;

stuttgart-std.jpg

 

After; 

 

gottlieb_daimler29.jpg


Edited by BishopLenBrennan, 11 September 2018 - 12:56 PM.

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#3 capitanus

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Posted 11 September 2018 - 06:46 PM

Is finally settled in favour of the ancestral home of Scottish football in the industrial and commercial capital of Scotland - Glasgow.

Let's face it, Edinburgh isn't really a football city, it's all about festivals, tourist tat, egg chasers, pomp and ceremony, and being the home of a kid-on parliament.

Discuss.

Edited by capitanus, 11 September 2018 - 06:48 PM.

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#4 LinwoodTON

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Posted 11 September 2018 - 07:00 PM

Never been a fan of Hampden since it was redeveloped. I'd much rather games were played at Ibrox and Celtic Park, with smaller games going around the country. 


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#5 capitanus

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Posted 11 September 2018 - 07:24 PM

Never been a fan of Hampden since it was redeveloped. I'd much rather games were played at Ibrox and Celtic Park, with smaller games going around the country.


I'm not surprised in the slightest that you have that view, since you are very rarely right in anything.

Celtic Park should never be allowed to host internationals since the fiasco that was the Scotland vs. Rep of Ireland and the Scotland vs. England double header. That ground is an accident in waiting.

Ibrox should never be given Scotland games as it would spare us all from indirectly subsidising those bastards.

Hampden it is then.
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#6 LinwoodTON

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Posted 11 September 2018 - 07:29 PM

I'm not surprised in the slightest that you have that view, since you are very rarely right in anything.

Celtic Park should never be allowed to host internationals since the fiasco that was the Scotland vs. Rep of Ireland and the Scotland vs. England double header. That ground is an accident in waiting.

Ibrox should never be given Scotland games as it would spare us all from indirectly subsidising those bastards.

Hampden it is then.

 

I actually installed the power boxes for the electric roller shutter doors when Hampden was redeveloped.

 

Just sayin'.  :)


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#7 EanieMeany

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Posted 11 September 2018 - 08:38 PM

I'm not surprised in the slightest that you have that view, since you are very rarely right in anything.

Celtic Park should never be allowed to host internationals since the fiasco that was the Scotland vs. Rep of Ireland and the Scotland vs. England double header. That ground is an accident in waiting.

Ibrox should never be given Scotland games as it would spare us all from indirectly subsidising those bastards.

Hampden it is then.

 

That's pretty much exactly it. Should go the whole hog and name Glasgow as the capital while we're at it.


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#8 TRVMP

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Posted 11 September 2018 - 09:02 PM

Celtic Park has no business hosting games until they fix their death-trap security situation. Ibrox is fine but there's no way the SFA want the minefield of having to please both of the OF. Plus Hampden is the home of the national team - and the national game - and has been for over a century.

 

Perhaps instead of having the absolutely shan Commonwealth Games we could have instead invested in a full rebuild to make Hampden a ground with actual sight lines from anything that isn't the top half of the rows, but that would have made too much sense. As it stands, people hoping for a redo of the seating are going to be disappointed for the time being. Still, it's better than Murrayfield, for which the only positive is size. It's a breezeblock hovel when you actually look at its construction.

 

I'm glad Lesser is going to QP and they're not just being turfed out, because they're also part of the game's history, but I don't think they've covered themselves with glory throughout this saga, frankly.


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#9 Toby

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Posted 11 September 2018 - 09:09 PM

Delighted with the decision, mainly because it gives the teuchters a chance to whine about the injustice of it all as they remember only last night trekking back to their shanty towns on the east coast in the pissing rain after briefly having their hopes raised that the SFA would actually accommodate their opinions.

 

All this as I had a half hour hop home on the bus and was in my bed for half 11 last night :).

 

They've absolutely owned Queen's Park too, which is good. There's no way the national stadium's only worth £5 million quid, but by showing the SRU a bit of ankle they've forced QP's hand as there's no way they'd have been able to pay back the lottery money that they were given if the National team left. Evicting them to Lesser Hampden too makes sense, although that will need work to being it up to the standards for a licence- hopefully those improvements will be paid for by them, rather than the SFA on top of the £5 million. The money they've leeched from Scottish football and government down the years due to an historical anomaly grates. Pisses me off walking past that plush new pavilion at Lesser Hampden knowing they spent f*ck all on it.

 

One concern is the role of Willie Haughey in this. Happy enough for the governing body to get Hampden for a knock down price, but this will be no act of charity from him- he's basically got a half share in a massive asset of national significance for the price of the loose change in his back pocket.

 

Time to looking into how Hampden can be converted into a stadium to be proud of now- I'd be quite happy with a long drawn out process if it means we get it right this time.


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#10 TRVMP

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Posted 11 September 2018 - 09:21 PM

It really was very odd that many (not all, to be fair) fans on the east coast felt they 'deserved' a centrally-located stadium. That's a lot more than just a new stadium - you're talking transport links, infrastructure, catering/hotels, training facilities, the lot. The government generally stays out of professional sports funding*. How is the SFA supposed to pay for this? And moreover why should they when they have a chance to buy their historic and spirtiual home, in the near-middle of a top-tier (by UK standards) city, with several train stations, bus stops, and parking options nearby, a motorway junction just down the road, and all manner of dining and drinking options? So a few mountain men from Arbroath can save 20 minutes on the charabanc? The ****ing brass neck of it.

 

*as they should. Living over here it boils my blood that team owners get to hold cities to ransom. "Build me a new stadium for my privately-owned, profit-making football team or I'll take it to another city." And the cities almost always grab their ankles and do it.  The Cowboys here in DFW are particularly brazen about this. Texas Stadium in Irving was admittedly falling apart, so they wanted a new ground. Being a hugely profitable enterprise, with the biggest fanbase in the US, apparently wasn't enough for the owner to buy his own facility, so he actually lobbied the city of Irving to cancel all public transport to pay for it. To their credit, Irving told him to get bent, so he went ten miles down the road to Arlington, where they implemented a new sales tax to build what is admittedly a fantastic facility, but one that the city had absolutely no business funding when they have very little stake in its future or its profits.

 

San Diego is the latest to tell them to **** off, and their owner then took the team "back" to Los Angeles, where they played one season around 300 years ago, and they now piss about in front of a half-dozen fans while they wait for the superstadium at Inglewood to be built. They'll maybe get a dozen when that's done. Hell mend them.

 

Anyway, point is, I'm glad Scotland doesn't habitually do the same thing. Inasmuch as sports are a matter of public policy, it should be about grassroots involvement, encouraging healthy living and social contact at all ages, and of course physical education for the kids.


Edited by TRVMP, 11 September 2018 - 09:25 PM.

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#11 TRVMP

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Posted 11 September 2018 - 09:24 PM

Time to looking into how Hampden can be converted into a stadium to be proud of now- I'd be quite happy with a long drawn out process if it means we get it right this time.

 

A rebuild is going to be comfortably into the eight figures, I just don't see it happening anytime soon.


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#12 capitanus

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Posted 11 September 2018 - 10:37 PM

It really was very odd that many (not all, to be fair) fans on the east coast felt they 'deserved' a centrally-located stadium. That's a lot more than just a new stadium - you're talking transport links, infrastructure, catering/hotels, training facilities, the lot. The government generally stays out of professional sports funding*. How is the SFA supposed to pay for this? And moreover why should they when they have a chance to buy their historic and spirtiual home, in the near-middle of a top-tier (by UK standards) city, with several train stations, bus stops, and parking options nearby, a motorway junction just down the road, and all manner of dining and drinking options? So a few mountain men from Arbroath can save 20 minutes on the charabanc? The ****ing brass neck of it.
 
*as they should. Living over here it boils my blood that team owners get to hold cities to ransom. "Build me a new stadium for my privately-owned, profit-making football team or I'll take it to another city." And the cities almost always grab their ankles and do it.  The Cowboys here in DFW are particularly brazen about this. Texas Stadium in Irving was admittedly falling apart, so they wanted a new ground. Being a hugely profitable enterprise, with the biggest fanbase in the US, apparently wasn't enough for the owner to buy his own facility, so he actually lobbied the city of Irving to cancel all public transport to pay for it. To their credit, Irving told him to get bent, so he went ten miles down the road to Arlington, where they implemented a new sales tax to build what is admittedly a fantastic facility, but one that the city had absolutely no business funding when they have very little stake in its future or its profits.
 
San Diego is the latest to tell them to **** off, and their owner then took the team "back" to Los Angeles, where they played one season around 300 years ago, and they now piss about in front of a half-dozen fans while they wait for the superstadium at Inglewood to be built. They'll maybe get a dozen when that's done. Hell mend them.
 
Anyway, point is, I'm glad Scotland doesn't habitually do the same thing. Inasmuch as sports are a matter of public policy, it should be about grassroots involvement, encouraging healthy living and social contact at all ages, and of course physical education for the kids.


I seen an interesting US Sports documentary on PBS a while back called "America's Parking Lot" which was about the Dallas Cowboys and their fan culture and how the stadium move created a lot of divisions amongst the supporters, some who were very wealthy and others who were working class and in danger of being priced out the game.

The West Ham supporters also hate the new London Stadium. They were desperate to get there but they're no longer the big community club of Cockney Eastenders, in their quest to catch up with their historically richer neighbours like Arsenal, Tottenham and Chelsea they have effectively alienated their hardcore supporters who were working class East Londoners.
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#13 capitanus

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Posted 11 September 2018 - 10:39 PM

A rebuild is going to be comfortably into the eight figures, I just don't see it happening anytime soon.

I seen a few similar stories today as the news broke:

https://www.scotsman...evamp-1-4798303

The more I read about it, the more I'm sold on it. From this:

https://pbs.twimg.co...=jpg&name=small

To this:

https://pbs.twimg.co...=jpg&name=small

Edited by capitanus, 11 September 2018 - 10:49 PM.

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#14 TRVMP

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Posted 12 September 2018 - 12:12 AM

I seen an interesting US Sports documentary on PBS a while back called "America's Parking Lot" which was about the Dallas Cowboys and their fan culture and how the stadium move created a lot of divisions amongst the supporters, some who were very wealthy and others who were working class and in danger of being priced out the game.

The West Ham supporters also hate the new London Stadium. They were desperate to get there but they're no longer the big community club of Cockney Eastenders, in their quest to catch up with their historically richer neighbours like Arsenal, Tottenham and Chelsea they have effectively alienated their hardcore supporters who were working class East Londoners.

 

Yeah, the paradox is that the new stadium is even bigger (so it should be able to accommodate more, increasing supply and thus lowering price) but the cost of parking etc. is so monstrous now that it's pricing out the working class. I guess I'll need to watch the documentary to see more of it. But the Cowboys have a huge nationwide following, including a lot of working class of all races (they are by far the most popular team among Mexicans and Mexican-Americans, for example. The Steelers, Raiders, and recently Patriots have also taken off.) And they are fleeced for all they're worse. Did this documentary cover the "party pass" nonsense they do at the Cowboys?

 

I will say this for them: it is an absolutely fantastic stadium. I've been there in a variety of capacities - work, watching a (soccer) game from the stands, the tour, and recently an obstacle course race - and it never fails to impress.

 

And yes, the West Ham thing is a real shame, but the sad reality is that for every East Ender who no longer shows up, two more will take their place, tourists or people from the Home Counties or even some of the old overspill who've made good in Essex. People who only get cheap tickets and don't spend big money at the game - the Premier League doesn't want the riff-raff around in the first place. They're more valuable to them sitting in front of Sky and not taking up space that a package tour from Shanghai would be using instead.

 

Then again, I wonder how many of the 60,000 will stick around if they go down, as seems likely?


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#15 TONofmemories

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Posted 12 September 2018 - 07:18 AM

I'm not surprised in the slightest that you have that view, since you are very rarely right in anything.

Celtic Park should never be allowed to host internationals since the fiasco that was the Scotland vs. Rep of Ireland and the Scotland vs. England double header. That ground is an accident in waiting.

Ibrox should never be given Scotland games as it would spare us all from indirectly subsidising those bastards.

Hampden it is then.

 

Tbf, it was absolutely ****ing delicious to beat the bheaggars in their own backyard that night. I'd say the venue on that occasion was perfect. 

 

It was tremendous to see wee paddy from Springburn in a puddle of tears. 


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#16 HamCam

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Posted 12 September 2018 - 08:01 AM

I don't know any fans in the east that preferred Murrayfield over Hampden. Although the home of football is a dump, the rugby dome is not much better for creating an atmosphere. Going forward the priority for Hampden has to be investing to make it a more fan friendly stadium while undertaking a serious review of ticket prices. Never understood the difficulty in learning from stadiums elsewhere in the world that work and recreating something similar at Hampden - the last revamp was a major missed opportunity.


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#17 EanieMeany

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Posted 12 September 2018 - 08:47 AM

I see Scott Brown's whinging about it. Spot the seething bumpkin.


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#18 EanieMeany

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Posted 12 September 2018 - 09:08 AM

I actually think that a lot of the complaints about Hampden are exagerrated, to an extent.

 

There's a few reasons for that, but primarily amongst them is the fact that the team has made an arse of of most of our qualifying groups very early on since 2008. It's only natural that the crowds are lower as a result, but in the 2008 games there was little wrong with the atmosphere at game: see also the recent England game, and even contrast that with the friendly at with the super-atmosphere-generator 3000 facilities in the East End. That game was pish on all fronts.

 

Another problem is that games are now being played on week nights rather than Saturdays and are wildly over-priced for a team which isn't qualifying for tournaments, so again, crowds are low and the atmosphere suffers as a result, but that's true of any big stadium. Blaming Hampden for a lack of noise when it's 50% full is pretty absurd, it'd be much worse with a lower crowd (Glasgow pretty much always, naturally, has higher attendances) at the significantly bigger Murrayfield. 

 

If we win our Nationals League with a 100% record and make a good start in the qualifiers next year, the crowds will be up and nobody will be talking about the stadium. I'm not suggesting for a  minute that it's fine how it is - it patently isn't - but a lot of the whinging is either amplified by the lack of success on the field or driven by vested interests such as the Rangers/Celtic supporters pissing and moaning because we're not using their hovels.

 

 

On another note, I seen Daryll Broadfoot saying that the alleged poor transport links are hardly the fault of the stadium which I think is a pretty fair comment. There's three train stations in the immediate vicinity, Crossmyloof isn't too far down the hill and there's enough buses - the problem isn't Hampden, it's the fact that the public transport system is rubbish. Scotrail, GCC and the Scottish Government (whose transport policies are pretty appalling across the board) need to take the responsibility for that. 


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#19 capitanus

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Posted 12 September 2018 - 08:21 PM

Tbf, it was absolutely ****ing delicious to beat the bheaggars in their own backyard that night. I'd say the venue on that occasion was perfect. 
 
It was tremendous to see wee paddy from Springburn in a puddle of tears.


The only times I reckon I've enjoyed being at Celtic Park for an international was the Scotland vs Austria game from around 1997, the Kevin Gallacher game, and that was from around the time before the ground was fully redeveloped.

The Scotland vs Republic of Ireland there was crushing outside the ground as one of the particular blocks of turnstiles only had one turnstile in operation plus the then unfamiliar scanner entry system slowing down entrance to the game. That is the only time I've ever been concerned about my safety at a game and I've been to some real s***hole grounds before.
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#20 capitanus

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Posted 12 September 2018 - 10:39 PM

I actually think that a lot of the complaints about Hampden are exagerrated, to an extent.

There's a few reasons for that, but primarily amongst them is the fact that the team has made an arse of of most of our qualifying groups very early on since 2008. It's only natural that the crowds are lower as a result, but in the 2008 games there was little wrong with the atmosphere at game: see also the recent England game, and even contrast that with the friendly at with the super-atmosphere-generator 3000 facilities in the East End. That game was pish on all fronts.

Another problem is that games are now being played on week nights rather than Saturdays and are wildly over-priced for a team which isn't qualifying for tournaments, so again, crowds are low and the atmosphere suffers as a result, but that's true of any big stadium. Blaming Hampden for a lack of noise when it's 50% full is pretty absurd, it'd be much worse with a lower crowd (Glasgow pretty much always, naturally, has higher attendances) at the significantly bigger Murrayfield.

If we win our Nationals League with a 100% record and make a good start in the qualifiers next year, the crowds will be up and nobody will be talking about the stadium. I'm not suggesting for a minute that it's fine how it is - it patently isn't - but a lot of the whinging is either amplified by the lack of success on the field or driven by vested interests such as the Rangers/Celtic supporters pissing and moaning because we're not using their hovels.


On another note, I seen Daryll Broadfoot saying that the alleged poor transport links are hardly the fault of the stadium which I think is a pretty fair comment. There's three train stations in the immediate vicinity, Crossmyloof isn't too far down the hill and there's enough buses - the problem isn't Hampden, it's the fact that the public transport system is rubbish. Scotrail, GCC and the Scottish Government (whose transport policies are pretty appalling across the board) need to take the responsibility for that.

Public transport to and from Hampden isn't bad - nearby bus routes 4, 4A, 5, 6, 7, 7A, 75, 31, 34, 89, 90 and 121 all pass near to the stadium; Nearby train stations are Mount Florida, Crosshill, Kings Park and Cathcart all within around 10-15 minutes to City Centre.

The M74 motorway junction nearby gives access to 75% of Scotland's population within a 1.5 hour drive time.

If the Commonwealth games had taught us anything that we should be implementing a park & ride system in and around the city to avoid congestion near the stadium at full time.

Edited by capitanus, 12 September 2018 - 10:47 PM.

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