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ICT on the brink


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12 hours ago, Cet Homme Charmant said:

I don't want them to go under, but given they've been living way beyond their means for many years now, I won't be overly sympathetic if they do. 

Lolwut

 

Send em packin'. Rancid club

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TIME FOR CHANGE!

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The 200k to last the next while seems pointless if they're going to be seven figures deep in it again come the season's end. They should go into admin, take the deduction, and come back that way.

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13 hours ago, TONofmemories said:

Lolwut

 

Send em packin'. Rancid club

Of course that's absolutely true, but I do still have a modicum of empathy for those fans who had no part in the club's profligacy that's got them to where they are today. 

But yeah, zero sympathy obviously for those responsible. 

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7 hours ago, Cet Homme Charmant said:

Of course that's absolutely true, but I do still have a modicum of empathy for those fans who had no part in the club's profligacy that's got them to where they are today. 

But yeah, zero sympathy obviously for those responsible. 

With most clubs, I'd share that view but remember these are the people who killed off two clubs in the past so they could have their "league" dream club.  Clachnacuddin for me.

"I learned long ago, never to wrestle with a pig. You get dirty, and besides, the pig likes it."

 

George Bernard Shaw

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Inverness CT are one of the clubs, along with Ross County and Livingston who for the past two and a half decades have taken over the mantle of a few clubs like Morton, Ayr United, Falkirk and Airdrie as a yoyo club going between the top two divisions.  

Granted they have fallen on tough times and haven't had their problems to seek, however I reckon they'll be back.  Just like Falkirk, Livingston, Partick and Dundee (several times) did before them, they'll get through this and come out the other side as though nothing happened.   

I wouldn’t gloat on it, especially since Morton never seem to know how to capitalise on the misfortune of clubs like this when they hit the rocks, and they always seem to bypass us on the way back.

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WE'LL COME BACK ONE DAY, WE NEVER REALLY WENT AWAY.
 

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21 hours ago, TAFKAC said:

With most clubs, I'd share that view but remember these are the people who killed off two clubs in the past so they could have their "league" dream club.  Clachnacuddin for me.

Hovis nonsense. The guys who opposed it were beaten fair and square in a series of democratic votes. The appetite for Caledonia and IT to continue was then nil - nobody bothered their arse with a phoenix club. This wasn't a Clydebank situation - the merger side, while less vocal - was far more popular. 

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55 minutes ago, TRVMP said:

Hovis nonsense. The guys who opposed it were beaten fair and square in a series of democratic votes. The appetite for Caledonia and IT to continue was then nil - nobody bothered their arse with a phoenix club. This wasn't a Clydebank situation - the merger side, while less vocal - was far more popular. 

Not really.  We're both saying the same thing - two clubs were merged, killing both off as going concerns, to deliver a league club for Inverness.  People opposed it, and they've never managed to get the level of support that a city the size of Inverness should provide.  Probably more to do with buses going down the A9 to Glasgow than anything linked to the merger.  

The over spending has been reckless and has left them where they are.  At least Ferguson is not taking wages, which should make it slightly easier to bin him if they can't get out of the relegation places.

"I learned long ago, never to wrestle with a pig. You get dirty, and besides, the pig likes it."

 

George Bernard Shaw

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47 minutes ago, TAFKAC said:

Not really.  We're both saying the same thing - two clubs were merged, killing both off as going concerns, to deliver a league club for Inverness.  People opposed it, and they've never managed to get the level of support that a city the size of Inverness should provide.  Probably more to do with buses going down the A9 to Glasgow than anything linked to the merger.  

The over spending has been reckless and has left them where they are.  At least Ferguson is not taking wages, which should make it slightly easier to bin him if they can't get out of the relegation places.

The people who opposed it lost fair and square and are far more likely to be on the buses down to Glasgow than those who backed the new club. Whether or not they support ICT is up to them but the absence of any phoenix club tells you all you need to know - at a time when the city was growing, Inverness went from three senior teams to two. The bitterenders - who lost their votes at both clubs despite having a near-monopoly on positive coverage - sat on their arses and did nothing after the clubs they supposedly loved made their decisions. 

No argument that they've overspent but that's hardly unique to them. It has, indeed, left them where they are. 

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11 hours ago, TRVMP said:

The people who opposed it lost fair and square and are far more likely to be on the buses down to Glasgow than those who backed the new club. Whether or not they support ICT is up to them but the absence of any phoenix club tells you all you need to know - at a time when the city was growing, Inverness went from three senior teams to two. The bitterenders - who lost their votes at both clubs despite having a near-monopoly on positive coverage - sat on their arses and did nothing after the clubs they supposedly loved made their decisions. 

No argument that they've overspent but that's hardly unique to them. It has, indeed, left them where they are. 

First real phoenix club was AFC Wimbledon in 2002; formed in response to Winkleman moving to MK.  ICT was formed in 1994, so there wasn't a sense that phoenix clubs were a thing.  Not sure anyone had thought of them beforehand.

"I learned long ago, never to wrestle with a pig. You get dirty, and besides, the pig likes it."

 

George Bernard Shaw

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19 hours ago, TAFKAC said:

First real phoenix club was AFC Wimbledon in 2002; formed in response to Winkleman moving to MK.  ICT was formed in 1994, so there wasn't a sense that phoenix clubs were a thing.  Not sure anyone had thought of them beforehand.

Middlesbrough were a phoenix club in 1986, and Aldershot Town & Maidstone United were both phoenix clubs c. 1992.

If anything, forming a phoenix club would have been much easier for a Highland League/ Non-League/Juniors outfit than for a professional club.  The club infrastructure and league requirements would most likely be less stringent for a start.  Its surprising that there was ever the need for a Caley/Thistle merger, as it was never really a marriage of equals and Caley could have joined the SFL set-up in their own right.  

Also,

Inverness Caley Thistle's attendances are not too bad either.  For the size of town and its environs, and lets stop pretending its some huge sprawling northern metropolis, they get similar crowds to similar clubs from similar sized towns eg. Falkirk, Dunfermline and St. Mirren.  The 'buses going to Glasgow' argument is less relevant here due to their remoteness to the cental belt, granted there will be a few but there most probably always was and always likely to be, but this will likely affect ICT less than most other clubs based in the Central belt.

Edited by capitanus

WE'LL COME BACK ONE DAY, WE NEVER REALLY WENT AWAY.
 

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5 hours ago, capitanus said:

Middlesbrough were a phoenix club in 1986, and Aldershot Town & Maidstone United were both phoenix clubs c. 1992.

If anything, forming a phoenix club would have been much easier for a Highland League/ Non-League/Juniors outfit than for a professional club.  The club infrastructure and league requirements would most likely be less stringent for a start.  Its surprising that there was ever the need for a Caley/Thistle merger, as it was never really a marriage of equals and Caley could have joined the SFL set-up in their own right.  

Also,

Inverness Caley Thistle's attendances are not too bad either.  For the size of town and its environs, and lets stop pretending its some huge sprawling northern metropolis, they get similar crowds to similar clubs from similar sized towns eg. Falkirk, Dunfermline and St. Mirren.  The 'buses going to Glasgow' argument is less relevant here due to their remoteness to the cental belt, granted there will be a few but there most probably always was and always likely to be, but this will likely affect ICT less than most other clubs based in the Central belt.

Fair point on phoenix clubs, although those are slightly different from what Trvmp was talking about.  All of your examples weren't fan driven phoenix clubs but were the forerunners of things like the rangers, where a club died and was replaced only by a new company.  And I agree there was no need for a merger, and that it was more of a takeover.

 

 

"I learned long ago, never to wrestle with a pig. You get dirty, and besides, the pig likes it."

 

George Bernard Shaw

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5 hours ago, TAFKAC said:

Fair point on phoenix clubs, although those are slightly different from what Trvmp was talking about.  All of your examples weren't fan driven phoenix clubs but were the forerunners of things like the rangers, where a club died and was replaced only by a new company.  And I agree there was no need for a merger, and that it was more of a takeover.

 

 

That wasn't the point Trump was talking about at all, he was simply making the point that Inverness Thistle supporters simply let this 'merger' happen.

Also, the examples which I gave were still 'Phoenix' clubs however they came about.  Indeed, one was even a Fan-led Phoenix club at least a decade prior to the example which you gave of AFC Wimbledon.

WE'LL COME BACK ONE DAY, WE NEVER REALLY WENT AWAY.
 

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On 10/5/2024 at 11:59 AM, Cet Homme Charmant said:

Of course that's absolutely true, but I do still have a modicum of empathy for those fans who had no part in the club's profligacy that's got them to where they are today. 

But yeah, zero sympathy obviously for those responsible. 

Not for me. There’s an awful lot of blame going to Scott Gardiner, here. And having watched the video of last night’s meeting, that’s not just from fans. The board gave him full autonomy and are doing what they can to absolve themselves of any blame.

But what were the figures from before Gardiner’s arrival? Were the fans happy to just stick their fingers in the their ears and hum along gleefully when they were mainstays in the Premiership and winning the Scottish Cup, or did they question the losses then? Of course they didn’t.

This is a club whose success was built on a mountain of credit that was given to them in good faith- not a Roy McGregor or a Douglas Rae massaging their ego. They lapped it up and now the chickens are coming home to roost the begging bowl is out and we’re all supposed to feel sorry for them. They had no pity for us when we were languishing below them in League One and the Championship, fuck them.

On 10/6/2024 at 7:41 PM, TRVMP said:

The people who opposed it lost fair and square and are far more likely to be on the buses down to Glasgow than those who backed the new club. Whether or not they support ICT is up to them but the absence of any phoenix club tells you all you need to know - at a time when the city was growing, Inverness went from three senior teams to two. The bitterenders - who lost their votes at both clubs despite having a near-monopoly on positive coverage - sat on their arses and did nothing after the clubs they supposedly loved made their decisions. 

No argument that they've overspent but that's hardly unique to them. It has, indeed, left them where they are. 

So far as I’m aware, the majority of dissenters migrated to Ross County and Clachnacuddin- similar to the Third Lanark fans migrating to Pollok in 1967. Though I do remember a short film on A View From The Terrace about a Thistle fan that refuses to move on, and isn’t over it 30 years later. It might be easy to say nobody was bothered so it didn’t matter, but if it got to one person, it was one person too many.

It might also be worth noting that before the merger, the Highland League operated parallel to the SFL, and many would have “supported” Rangers, Celtic and Aberdeen, as well as their local club, safe in the knowledge that there would never be a conflict of interest. I’ve always considered Inverness to be a very Rangersy town, and given their success in that period, many may have gone down the route of sticking to their big team. Not that I agree with that, but it’s a completely different environment to growing up and living in the west, where having a big team and a wee team is rightly frowned upon.

For the record, and I know it’s not relevant to your argument given the passage of time, a phoenix Thistle have been formed with the intention of joining next season’s North Caledonian League- for those not in the know, that’s the sixth tier for that region of the Highlands, immediately below the Highland League. Good luck to them.

15 hours ago, capitanus said:

Middlesbrough were a phoenix club in 1986, and Aldershot Town & Maidstone United were both phoenix clubs c. 1992.

If anything, forming a phoenix club would have been much easier for a Highland League/ Non-League/Juniors outfit than for a professional club.  The club infrastructure and league requirements would most likely be less stringent for a start.  Its surprising that there was ever the need for a Caley/Thistle merger, as it was never really a marriage of equals and Caley could have joined the SFL set-up in their own right.  

Also,

Inverness Caley Thistle's attendances are not too bad either.  For the size of town and its environs, and lets stop pretending its some huge sprawling northern metropolis, they get similar crowds to similar clubs from similar sized towns eg. Falkirk, Dunfermline and St. Mirren.  The 'buses going to Glasgow' argument is less relevant here due to their remoteness to the cental belt, granted there will be a few but there most probably always was and always likely to be, but this will likely affect ICT less than most other clubs based in the Central belt.

Inverness don’t get crowds anything like St. Mirren, Dunfermline and Falkirk. They don’t even get crowds like Morton, Ayr and Raith (before the new board boosted their crowds).

Anyone who’s travelled to Inverness semi-regularly in the last 30 years will have noted that published crowds are in no way reflective of the amount of people actually inside their ground.

If we’re going to compare them in stature to other clubs in the country, they’re much more akin to Hamilton, and Arbroath in terms of stature, and smaller than Livingston and Queen of the South.

The clearest indicator in their fudged attendances often comes when comparing what they get for cup games against similar opposition. Of course there will be a drop off because cup games aren’t on the season ticket, but in Inverness’s case, it’s more dramatic than at other clubs, when gate money is shared.

Whether publishing inaccurate crowds allows them to sell advertising at a higher premium or they just like to portray themselves as more attractive than they actually are, I don’t know. But they’re a far more modest club than they’re made out to be.

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22 hours ago, Toby said:

Not for me. There’s an awful lot of blame going to Scott Gardiner, here. And having watched the video of last night’s meeting, that’s not just from fans. The board gave him full autonomy and are doing what they can to absolve themselves of any blame.

But what were the figures from before Gardiner’s arrival? Were the fans happy to just stick their fingers in the their ears and hum along gleefully when they were mainstays in the Premiership and winning the Scottish Cup, or did they question the losses then? Of course they didn’t.

This is a club whose success was built on a mountain of credit that was given to them in good faith- not a Roy McGregor or a Douglas Rae massaging their ego. They lapped it up and now the chickens are coming home to roost the begging bowl is out and we’re all supposed to feel sorry for them. They had no pity for us when we were languishing below them in League One and the Championship, fuck them.

So far as I’m aware, the majority of dissenters migrated to Ross County and Clachnacuddin- similar to the Third Lanark fans migrating to Pollok in 1967. Though I do remember a short film on A View From The Terrace about a Thistle fan that refuses to move on, and isn’t over it 30 years later. It might be easy to say nobody was bothered so it didn’t matter, but if it got to one person, it was one person too many.

It might also be worth noting that before the merger, the Highland League operated parallel to the SFL, and many would have “supported” Rangers, Celtic and Aberdeen, as well as their local club, safe in the knowledge that there would never be a conflict of interest. I’ve always considered Inverness to be a very Rangersy town, and given their success in that period, many may have gone down the route of sticking to their big team. Not that I agree with that, but it’s a completely different environment to growing up and living in the west, where having a big team and a wee team is rightly frowned upon.

For the record, and I know it’s not relevant to your argument given the passage of time, a phoenix Thistle have been formed with the intention of joining next season’s North Caledonian League- for those not in the know, that’s the sixth tier for that region of the Highlands, immediately below the Highland League. Good luck to them.

Inverness don’t get crowds anything like St. Mirren, Dunfermline and Falkirk. They don’t even get crowds like Morton, Ayr and Raith (before the new board boosted their crowds).

Anyone who’s travelled to Inverness semi-regularly in the last 30 years will have noted that published crowds are in no way reflective of the amount of people actually inside their ground.

If we’re going to compare them in stature to other clubs in the country, they’re much more akin to Hamilton, and Arbroath in terms of stature, and smaller than Livingston and Queen of the South.

The clearest indicator in their fudged attendances often comes when comparing what they get for cup games against similar opposition. Of course there will be a drop off because cup games aren’t on the season ticket, but in Inverness’s case, it’s more dramatic than at other clubs, when gate money is shared.

Whether publishing inaccurate crowds allows them to sell advertising at a higher premium or they just like to portray themselves as more attractive than they actually are, I don’t know. But they’re a far more modest club than they’re made out to be.

With regards to their crowds, I was only going on their reported attendances which always seemed to be healthy, however as you've been up there many times over the years you've seen this for yourself not to be the case.  

As I said previously, everyone needs to stop pretending that Inverness is some gargantuan sprawling metropolis like a teuchter equivalent of Guangzhou - its a wee bit more modest than that, and perhaps their local football club is a bit more modest than that too.  Even if their crowds are more in line with the Arbroaths of this world, for a club thats only 30 years old and playing in a modest sized town in the middle of nowhere, thats still not bad.  Maybe realising their actual place may bring about some actual order and stability, instead of deluding themselves and getting found out.

WE'LL COME BACK ONE DAY, WE NEVER REALLY WENT AWAY.
 

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1 hour ago, capitanus said:

With regards to their crowds, I was only going on their reported attendances which always seemed to be healthy, however as you've been up there many times over the years you've seen this for yourself not to be the case.  

As I said previously, everyone needs to stop pretending that Inverness is some gargantuan sprawling metropolis like a teuchter equivalent of Guangzhou - its a wee bit more modest than that, and perhaps their local football club is a bit more modest than that too.  Even if their crowds are more in line with the Arbroaths of this world, for a club thats only 30 years old and playing in a modest sized town in the middle of nowhere, thats still not bad.  Maybe realising their actual place may bring about some actual order and stability, instead of deluding themselves and getting found out.

I agree about their place in the grand scheme of things. Not only the size of the town’s population (I refuse to accept it’s a city) but their isolation plays a huge part.

Without being financially doped, full time football isn’t really an option in the Highlands, and the desperation to move training to Kelty in the summer suggested at least a partial realisation of that.

While Morton can pay a guy in his early 20s from Bellshill or Kirkintilloch a £400 a week or whatever wage and still get away with him staying with his parents or girlfriend and making ends meet- that’s just not possible for them, given the smaller potential pool of players that wouldn’t need to relocate at considerable expense.

Add those factors to their already smaller crowds than Morton, and the fact that you can’t get to Wunderbar or whatever the trendiest Glasgow boozer is these days with the lads for 7.30 after a home game, there aren’t many selling points.

A real shame for them, they have my pity :) .

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On 10/8/2024 at 6:33 PM, Toby said:

Not for me. There’s an awful lot of blame going to Scott Gardiner, here. And having watched the video of last night’s meeting, that’s not just from fans. The board gave him full autonomy and are doing what they can to absolve themselves of any blame.

But what were the figures from before Gardiner’s arrival? Were the fans happy to just stick their fingers in the their ears and hum along gleefully when they were mainstays in the Premiership and winning the Scottish Cup, or did they question the losses then? Of course they didn’t.

Gardiner appointed April 2019 when they were already very much in the process of chucking millions into a hole.

Screenshot_20241002_200814_X.jpg

 

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3 hours ago, Toby said:

I agree about their place in the grand scheme of things. Not only the size of the town’s population (I refuse to accept it’s a city) but their isolation plays a huge part.

Without being financially doped, full time football isn’t really an option in the Highlands, and the desperation to move training to Kelty in the summer suggested at least a partial realisation of that.

While Morton can pay a guy in his early 20s from Bellshill or Kirkintilloch a £400 a week or whatever wage and still get away with him staying with his parents or girlfriend and making ends meet- that’s just not possible for them, given the smaller potential pool of players that wouldn’t need to relocate at considerable expense.

Add those factors to their already smaller crowds than Morton, and the fact that you can’t get to Wunderbar or whatever the trendiest Glasgow boozer is these days with the lads for 7.30 after a home game, there aren’t many selling points.

A real shame for them, they have my pity :) .

Clubs used to talk about 'catchment area' but being out on your own is as much a curse as a blessing. In Spain there's a club called Numancia, which plays in the city and province of Soria. There's no other full time club for at least an hour in any direction. They find it hard to get loan players because if someone's at a Madrid club or near Zaragoza the last time they want to do is head out to the sticks. 

I think for clubs like that and Inverness one day they're just going to have to move footballing operations to the capital or a big city. I don't see any way around it. Granted the Kelty thing was a comedy of errors but you just need to look at Stranraer and QoS to see that you can't remain geographically isolated. It's not the case anymore and hasn't been for over a century that you can field a competitive side made up of the best local lads. 

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3 hours ago, Cet Homme Charmant said:

For some reason or other geographical isolation doesn't seem to be an issue in Norway, Bodo/Glimt and Tromso being the obvious examples. They're FAR more isolated than Dumfries, Stranraer and Inverness. 

My guess is it's something to do with air travel. I wonder if isolated second-division clubs do half as well.

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