14 Team Top Flight Being Mooted For Next Season

[Ed de Ball]

Ed, without unpacking all of your post - why is it a problem if teams are being kept afloat by TV money? Broadcasting is, depending on country, either just as or even more important than matchday income. (There is the related point that teams like Morton are absolutely terrible at generating matchday income; what little we get from TV saves us from ourselves.) It's high time Scottish football took TV seriously. I think the Setanta debacle scared them off a bit. We saw no such reluctance in England after the ondigital collapse. They were right back in the saddle.

I do not have a problem with TV money per se. What I am not in favour of is when it is used in conjunction with vanity projects such as Rushden & Diamonds and Fleetwood to locate clubs in areas where in reality there are few natural fans at the detriment of areas where there are huge natural fan bases. Bournemouth is an example of that currently whereby millions of Russian money has been pumped in to a 10,000 capacity set up. Great for the few in Bournemouth who can get tickets but if this is the way forward maybe the authority should look for area bids with modern stadium facilities so that for example this money is used to set up a Sheffield or Birmingham franchise with Southampton being used as the South Coast franchise site. Might prevent another Gretna fiasco whereby other clubs including Morton actually suffered because of Gretnas presence.

[TRVMP]

I do not have a problem with TV money per se. What I am not in favour of is when it is used in conjunction with vanity projects such as Rushden & Diamonds and Fleetwood to locate clubs in areas where in reality there are few natural fans at the detriment of areas where there are huge natural fan bases. Bournemouth is an example of that currently whereby millions of Russian money has been pumped in to a 10,000 capacity set up. Great for the few in Bournemouth who can get tickets but if this is the way forward maybe the authority should look for area bids with modern stadium facilities so that for example this money is used to set up a Sheffield or Birmingham franchise with Southampton being used as the South Coast franchise site. Might prevent another Gretna fiasco whereby other clubs including Morton actually suffered because of Gretnas presence.

But everyone gets TV money. What you describe has nothing to do with TV money. It's been happening for as long as there's been professional football. Rushden and Diamonds were a latter-day Glossop North End (if Irthlingborough didn't overtake them, Glossop remains the smallest town to have had a Football League club.)

 

England is a huge country, football mad, awash with money. If you exclude some rural areas there's not a single part of England that couldn't support a Premier League club.

[Rin Tin Ton]

The south coast (Kent to Cornwall) of England has a greater population than the whole of Scotland.

Just to put things into perspective.

 

We have managed over the past 50 years to produce 4 Scottish clubs who contested 11 European club competition finals between them.

Until our educational system destroyed all ideas if competition and working on your talent, we have punched may above our weight in football, and produced lots of very good footballers and lots of exciting play.

 

Until we change our education ideas, and get kids interested in football and going to see footballers play good football, any arbitary shuffling of leagues is basically a waste of time.

 

Greenock Morton should not be having to survive on gates of under 2,000, but we do because TV and Golden Casket indulge us. We should be able to attract 5,000 gates for a typical game against Raith Rovers, or Falkirk, or Kilmarnock, or Hamilton, whether we are in the top league or the Championship. People should want to come, it should be natural to go to the game on a Saturday. Kids should think of watching their footballing heroes, in the local team.

 

Our current team has lots of decent players, who I reckon all had a late start in football and don't have enough of the basics. You look at Barr, Russell, O'Ware, McKee, Tidser, Lamie, Johnstone, all real talent but probably nowhere near the finished article they would have been had they been kids elsewhere playing competitive football from the age of 5, 6, 7.

 

Question -how come Belgium has suddnely got 15 great players in their national squad?

[TRVMP]

Question -how come Belgium has suddnely got 15 great players in their national squad?

 

Oh, I know this one! It's because of their educational system.

 

Mentalist.

[LinwoodTON]

Question -how come Belgium has suddnely got 15 great players in their national squad?

 

Probably because only five of their most recent twenty two man squad play club football in Belgium. Of the five, two were keepers and one was uncapped.

[Ed de Ball]

But everyone gets TV money. What you describe has nothing to do with TV money. It's been happening for as long as there's been professional football. Rushden and Diamonds were a latter-day Glossop North End (if Irthlingborough didn't overtake them, Glossop remains the smallest town to have had a Football League club.)

England is a huge country, football mad, awash with money. If you exclude some rural areas there's not a single part of England that couldn't support a Premier League club.

But everyone gets TV money. What you describe has nothing to do with TV money. It's been happening for as long as there's been professional football. Rushden and Diamonds were a latter-day Glossop North End (if Irthlingborough didn't overtake them, Glossop remains the smallest town to have had a Football League club.)

England is a huge country, football mad, awash with money. If you exclude some rural areas there's not a single part of England that couldn't support a Premier League club.

Think we are straying from the main issue, what is the best way to organise Scottish football. All I am saying is that we need to have better stadia and make sure as many fans as possible can see it in the ground. So clubs need an incentive to invest which to an extent the play off system militates against. Enjoyable though it is it can be a bit of a lottery as we know from our experience with Peterhead some years back.

 

Re your final paragraph, I live in the south of England, I can get to see Morton play live quite often thanks to Flybe. I have no chance whatsoever of seeing Bournemouth play in the Premiership, the capacity is 10000 . The natural support base has varied between 5-7k. Last year's trading lost was £40m all funded by a non-domicile Russian billionaire who has a local holiday home. They could not possibly trade insolently in this way without a rich mans guarantee ( bit like us). Hull and Burnley with better stadia and bigger support

went down last year depriving their bigger fan base of top tier support. Going forward would it really be in the best interests of the game to have a fat cat come along and invest in a small stadium in effort to get his hands on TV money at the expense of letting bigger clubs die. At the moment it is probably cheaper and a better investment to pump money into players for Alloa than it is to buy Kilmarnock.

[capitanus]

I still think you need to be clear about the objectives of change. Increased competiveness does not necessarily mean a better quality product on the pitch. Standards in all of our leagues are pretty poor by European comparison as evidenced by the abysmal performances of Scottish teams in the Europa League and Celtic's poor run in the Champions League. Attendances are in decline and most clubs are being kept afloat by TV money.

 

In mentioning Ross County I was not seeking to decry what they have achieved. They are though a team based in an area where the natural population is not big enough to finance a Premier League team through gate receipts alone. Theoretically Morton or Hibs should be able to do a lot better if they were better run. Crowds at Cappielow are still poor so thought needs to be given as what extent that is down to the quality of the product and or the poor stadium facilities. Clubs should be "encouraged to do more on both and maybe the lottery of the play offs prevents that. Personally I think Hamilton has no place in a Premier League, particularly on that includes adjacent Motherwell but then why should Hibs have been rewarded for mediocrity. Moving to 14 might allow Motherwell, Dundee Utd and Kilmarnock not to implode and Rangers and Hibs to stay up but will it allow the professional game in Scotland to flourish? Might have a better chance than Ross County and Hamilton could provide.

 

It seems clear that we are chasing TV money albeit belatedly given the lack of cup sponsorship in recent years. We need to provide something the big players like BT and Sky would like. At the moment watching some of the Scottish games televised from near empty 2 or 3 sided grounds with no atmosphere is embarrassing. The sight of a guy without a hood stood on a mound behind a goal in the wind and rain might be cute but it is hardly a selling point for Scottish football.

 

This has to be conclusive evidence that 'Ed de Ball' is indeed Bawheid

 

 

Hamilton have won enough football matches to merit their place in the Premier League, sit down you fucking bell end.

 

 

         

[capitanus]

I do not have a problem with TV money per se. What I am not in favour of is when it is used in conjunction with vanity projects such as Rushden & Diamonds and Fleetwood to locate clubs in areas where in reality there are few natural fans at the detriment of areas where there are huge natural fan bases. Bournemouth is an example of that currently whereby millions of Russian money has been pumped in to a 10,000 capacity set up. Great for the few in Bournemouth who can get tickets but if this is the way forward maybe the authority should look for area bids with modern stadium facilities so that for example this money is used to set up a Sheffield or Birmingham franchise with Southampton being used as the South Coast franchise site. Might prevent another Gretna fiasco whereby other clubs including Morton actually suffered because of Gretnas presence.

 

Population of Bournemouth Borough Council area - 191,400

Population of Poole Borough Council area - 147,600

Population of Christchurch Borough Council area - 47,987

Population of Dorset County Council area - 416,720

 

So, from the above stats, The town of Bournemouth (on its own) is larger than the city of Dundee and just slightly smaller than Aberdeen; however if you take into account the urban conurbation which it sits - Bournemouth, Poole and Christchurch (similar to Greenock, Gourock and the Port) - it is an area of over 386,000 people, or a bigger population than Swansea, Stoke-on-Trent and Leicester to name but a few.  Add in the County Council area of Dorset, which is an hours drive-time from Bournemouth, you'd have 800,000 people of a catchment area.  Thats enough people to support top-flight football, if the club were to merit it.  

 

Bournemouth in recent weeks have proven that they can rise to the occasion with wins over Man United and Chelsea, only time will tell if theyre good enough to go the distance, but they're every bit as deserving their place at the top table as, say, Blackburn or Wolves if they were to get back there.

[capitanus]

Think we are straying from the main issue, what is the best way to organise Scottish football. All I am saying is that we need to have better stadia and make sure as many fans as possible can see it in the ground. So clubs need an incentive to invest which to an extent the play off system militates against. Enjoyable though it is it can be a bit of a lottery as we know from our experience with Peterhead some years back.

 

Re your final paragraph, I live in the south of England, I can get to see Morton play live quite often thanks to Flybe. I have no chance whatsoever of seeing Bournemouth play in the Premiership, the capacity is 10000 . The natural support base has varied between 5-7k. Last year's trading lost was £40m all funded by a non-domicile Russian billionaire who has a local holiday home. They could not possibly trade insolently in this way without a rich mans guarantee ( bit like us). Hull and Burnley with better stadia and bigger support

went down last year depriving their bigger fan base of top tier support. Going forward would it really be in the best interests of the game to have a fat cat come along and invest in a small stadium in effort to get his hands on TV money at the expense of letting bigger clubs die. At the moment it is probably cheaper and a better investment to pump money into players for Alloa than it is to buy Kilmarnock.

 

 

When did you and Lesley move down there, Charlie?

[capitanus]

The south coast (Kent to Cornwall) of England has a greater population than the whole of Scotland.

Just to put things into perspective.

 

We have managed over the past 50 years to produce 4 Scottish clubs who contested 11 European club competition finals between them.

Until our educational system destroyed all ideas if competition and working on your talent, we have punched may above our weight in football, and produced lots of very good footballers and lots of exciting play.

 

Until we change our education ideas, and get kids interested in football and going to see footballers play good football, any arbitary shuffling of leagues is basically a waste of time.

 

Greenock Morton should not be having to survive on gates of under 2,000, but we do because TV and Golden Casket indulge us. We should be able to attract 5,000 gates for a typical game against Raith Rovers, or Falkirk, or Kilmarnock, or Hamilton, whether we are in the top league or the Championship. People should want to come, it should be natural to go to the game on a Saturday. Kids should think of watching their footballing heroes, in the local team.

 

Our current team has lots of decent players, who I reckon all had a late start in football and don't have enough of the basics. You look at Barr, Russell, O'Ware, McKee, Tidser, Lamie, Johnstone, all real talent but probably nowhere near the finished article they would have been had they been kids elsewhere playing competitive football from the age of 5, 6, 7.

 

Question -how come Belgium has suddnely got 15 great players in their national squad?

 

   

 

Oh, I know this one! It's because of their educational system.

 

Mentalist.

 

   

[Ed de Ball]

Population of Bournemouth Borough Council area - 191,400

Population of Poole Borough Council area - 147,600

Population of Christchurch Borough Council area - 47,987

Population of Dorset County Council area - 416,720

 

So, from the above stats, The town of Bournemouth (on its own) is larger than the city of Dundee and just slightly smaller thaAberdeen; however if you take into account the urban conurbation which it sits - Bournemouth, Poole and Christchurch (similar to Greenock, Gourock and the Port) - it is an area of over 386,000 people, or a bigger population than Swansea, Stoke-on-Trent and Leicester to name but a few.  Add in the County Council area of Dorset, which is an hours drive-time from Bournemouth, you'd have 800,000 people of a catchment area.  Thats enough people to support top-flight football, if the club were to merit it.  

 

Bournemouth in recent weeks have proven that they can rise to the occasion with wins over Man United and Chelsea, only time will tell if theyre good enough to go the distance, but they're every bit as deserving their place at the top table as, say, Blackburn or Wolves if they were to get back there.

Only it has sweet Fanny Adams to do with Bournemouth or AFC Bournemouth or Bournemouth & Boscombe and everything to do with £100m of Max Denim' money. A rich Russian's femporary whim and when that is over and there is reduced TV money to mitigate the huge losses will result in another liquidation. By the way in the catchment area you quote 80% are over 70!!

[capitanus]

Only it has sweet Fanny Adams to do with Bournemouth or AFC Bournemouth or Bournemouth & Boscombe and everything to do with £100m of Max Denim' money. A rich Russian's femporary whim and when that is over and there is reduced TV money to mitigate the huge losses will result in another liquidation. By the way in the catchment area you quote 80% are over 70!!

 

 

Please show me that stat?

[TaunTon]

Please show me that stat?

 

I'd like to see that as well. Certainly Dorset has been a favourite retirement haunt but Bournemouth is a pretty young and vibrant place. My boys just finished his degree at BU and we've spent a hell of a lot of time in Bournemouth/Poole/Boscombe over the past 4 years and it certainly is not gods waiting room.

[Ed de Ball]

I'd like to see that as well. Certainly Dorset has been a favourite retirement haunt but Bournemouth is a pretty young and vibrant place. My boys just finished his degree at BU and we've spent a hell of a lot of time in Bournemouth/Poole/Boscombe over the past 4 years and it certainly is not gods waiting room.

Ok slight case of hyperbole. Christchurch officially has the oldest population in the UK and Highcliffe is indeed referred to as God's waiting room. You can get the stats on Visit Dorset. My underlying point is that having been in the area for more than 25 years I know that there is not the natural support here to sustain Premiership football. Last season's wages in the Championship were £20m and I could more or less get a last minute ticket for any of the games in a 10,000 capacity stadium. A large number of the young people you refer to are transients. Apart from the University the area is jammed with foreign language schools and holiday homes.

 

On the thread, do we want Scottish football to be played out in crap/small capacity stadia with minimal crowds but with disparate TV audiences like some of the tennis on Eurosport or should we go for something more radical whereby to get into the top tier proper qualifying criteria have to be met. Poole is a speedway town and in that sport there are salary caps, rider picks etc to try and engender real competition. There is no point in increasing league numbers just to bring in cannon fodder to protect the mediocrity in the middle.

[TaunTon]

Ok slight case of hyperbole. Christchurch officially has the oldest population in the UK and Highcliffe is indeed referred to as God's waiting room. You can get the stats on Visit Dorset. My underlying point is that having been in the area for more than 25 years I know that there is not the natural support here to sustain Premiership football. Last season's wages in the Championship were £20m and I could more or less get a last minute ticket for any of the games in a 10,000 capacity stadium. A large number of the young people you refer to are transients. Apart from the University the area is jammed with foreign language schools and holiday homes.

 

 

Forgiven.

 

I'd agree that teams like Bournemouth with a relatively small core fan base will always be more likely to exit the EPL after a short period, but no team coming up from the championship, no matter the size of their fan base, will find it an easy transition.

 

No club should have a divine right to sit at the top table based on how 'big' their support is and the Hull's, Leeds, Derby's etc correctly inhabit the lower divisions because they didn't compete successfully on the park where it matters most.

[Ed de Ball]

Forgiven.

 

I'd agree that teams like Bournemouth with a relatively small core fan base will always be more likely to exit the EPL after a short period, but no team coming up from the championship, no matter the size of their fan base, will find it an easy transition.

 

No club should have a divine right to sit at the top table based on how 'big' their support is and the Hull's, Leeds, Derby's etc correctly inhabit the lower divisions because they didn't compete successfully on the park where it matters most.

Yes fully agree with all that. I think Eddie Howe is a fantastic manager both in terms of talent spotting and tactical astuteness and I am delighted for them. The finance though is provided at the whim of a non-domiciled Russian one of whose houses happens to be here. If he had a house in your area he might well have pumped the money into Yeovil! At the end of the day I suppose this is no different from the Man U, Arsenal, Man City, Chelsea etc foreign franchises that the salary cap is supposed to address it but I don't think there should be some requirement to provide a minimum capacity stadium with modern facilities for top tier access.

[capitanus]

Forgiven.

 

I'd agree that teams like Bournemouth with a relatively small core fan base will always be more likely to exit the EPL after a short period, but no team coming up from the championship, no matter the size of their fan base, will find it an easy transition.

 

No club should have a divine right to sit at the top table based on how 'big' their support is and the Hull's, Leeds, Derby's etc correctly inhabit the lower divisions because they didn't compete successfully on the park where it matters most.

 

Bournemouth are where they currently are on merit.  

 

Its not, and never should be, about the size of the town/city's population, the size of ground, or indeed the number of supporters that come along on matchday.

 

No supporter has ever leapt out of the stands on a matchday, Chic Kavanagh-style, to claim three points for his team, or having a 40,000 capacity ground as opposed to 15,000 has never translated into league points either, so pretty much like his comments about Hamilton Accies earlier, his point about Bournemouth is crap.  Its about a squad of football players playing football and winning games.  Thats what football is about, and thats why people go to watch it.  

 

 

 

Yes fully agree with all that. I think Eddie Howe is a fantastic manager both in terms of talent spotting and tactical astuteness and I am delighted for them. The finance though is provided at the whim of a non-domiciled Russian one of whose houses happens to be here. If he had a house in your area he might well have pumped the money into Yeovil! At the end of the day I suppose this is no different from the Man U, Arsenal, Man City, Chelsea etc foreign franchises that the salary cap is supposed to address it but I don't think there should be some requirement to provide a minimum capacity stadium with modern facilities for top tier access.

 

And that hasn't happened anywhere else before I suppose?

 

Guess what, it will happen again too.

[Ed de Ball]

It's just my opinion, I don't pretend to have the monopoly of wisdom on this.

 

Not sure what your view is on what is best for restructuring in Scotland or whether and to what extent you are happy for the Dundee's and Livingston's of this world to spend above their profit generating capacity to surge up leagues at the expense of others. Presumably as it's happened before and will happen again the SFA need do nothing.

 

I seem to be the only one who was thoroughly pissed of when Gretna got to the top through fuzzy finance and when Airdrie kept us in a lower division by buying Clydebank and don't want that to happen again but heyho.

[capitanus]

It's just my opinion, I don't pretend to have the monopoly of wisdom on this.

 

Its just as well, you dont seem to have any wisdom, on this matter or any other.

 

 

 

 

Not sure what your view is on what is best for restructuring in Scotland or whether and to what extent you are happy for the Dundee's and Livingston's of this world to spend above their profit generating capacity to surge up leagues at the expense of others. Presumably as it's happened before and will happen again the SFA need do nothing.

 

It will happen time and again, I dont think it can be legislated against.

 

 

 

I seem to be the only one who was thoroughly pissed of when Gretna got to the top through fuzzy finance and when Airdrie kept us in a lower division by buying Clydebank and don't want that to happen again but heyho.

 

Aye, you were the only one.

[Ed de Ball]

Its just as well, you dont seem to have any wisdom, on this matter or any other.

 

 

 

 

It will happen time and again, I dont think it can be legislated against.

 

 

 

Aye, you were the only one.

How very grown up of you to say so. Your detailed rebuttals juxtaposed with your own views on how the leagues might be reconstructed were truly killers. Robbie Savage must be worried that his job is at risk with you around.