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Poll: IndyRef (32 member(s) have cast votes)

How did you vote in September 2014?

  1. Yes (24 votes [75.00%])

    Percentage of vote: 75.00%

  2. No (8 votes [25.00%])

    Percentage of vote: 25.00%

How would you vote in a second referendum?

  1. Yes (25 votes [78.12%])

    Percentage of vote: 78.12%

  2. No (7 votes [21.88%])

    Percentage of vote: 21.88%

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#1 BishopLenBrennan

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Posted 25 April 2019 - 05:37 AM

Sturgeon has announced she intends to call a second referendum by May 2021 if the UK leaves the EU, so let's start this thread early. 

 

It'll be interesting to see if/when Downing Street allow a Section 30 order to make the referendum legally binding.  


You address me by my proper title, you little bollocks! 


#2 EanieMeany

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Posted 25 April 2019 - 08:18 AM

It seems like a total cop-out, to be honest. Sturgeon knows fine well Westminster will keep saying "no" to a section 30 order, therefore she's not likely to have to actually do anything at all. It's remarkable that she's not faced a leadership challenge yet

 

If Scotland's ever going to be independent, it's not likely to be as as a result of the talents of the likes of her, Derek McKay and Keith Brown and their Growth Report. Hopefully the likes of the Scottish Independence Convention can provide a credible leadership.


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#3 TONofmemories

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Posted 25 April 2019 - 08:30 AM

Meanwhile, our schools and health services need urgent attention. But let's not let that get in the way of another exit strategy. 

 

Run the ****ing country to the best of your ability. 


Edited by TONofmemories, 25 April 2019 - 08:31 AM.

TIME FOR CHANGE!


#4 EanieMeany

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Posted 25 April 2019 - 09:32 AM

Meanwhile, our schools and health services need urgent attention. But let's not let that get in the way of another exit strategy. 

 

Run the ****ing country to the best of your ability. 

 

Independence and a high standard public services aren't mutually exclusive: the premise for independence is, for the most part, that it's not possible to deliver the level of services and living standards other countries of similar size and stature enjoy.

 

The other side of that though, is that you really need to demonstrate that these things are only possible with independence, which is where Sturgeon has failed and failed badly. If she had picked up where the "Yes" campaign left off (and let's not forget, it came within a bawhair of succeeding), constantly looking at countries like Norway as the benchmark, pushed the devolution settlement to it's boundaries, the Scottish Parliament would still have been unable to deliver the standards it aspired to and at that point, how could anybody have objected to the idea of independence when the country was visibly being held back by the constraints of the Union? 

 

Instead of that kind of boldness, there's been...well, not much, really. What's the point in moaning about extra powers from Westminster if you don't push the ones you have to their boundaries or tell people what exactly it is you want to do with them? How can you really inspire people when your response to failing services or increasing poverty is to go "well, it's better than in England"? We rarely even get grand (yet depthless) promises from the SNP now, all we get is "it'll be a bit better". As it stands, it's not the Union that's the biggest barrier to fulfilling Scotland's potential, it's the Scottish Parliament arsing about, squabbling over scraps and about who can be the most bland. Push Holyrood to its boundaries and independence is the next logical step.

 

Perhaps a confident, bold independence movement will arise over the next year or so that can over-turn all of that, but it won't change the fact that the last five years have been spent tinkering about rather than trying to drive things as far forwards as possible. If those years had been used with the appropriate level of vision and brave leadership, independence would be a formality rather an eternal, tedious bunfight. We're not even discussing different visions now, just an endless stream of nonsense about procedure and it's dull as ****.


Edited by EanieMeany, 25 April 2019 - 09:34 AM.

AWMSC


#5 TONofmemories

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Posted 25 April 2019 - 09:37 AM

Independence and a high standard public services aren't mutually exclusive: the premise for independence is, for the most part, that it's not possible to deliver the level of services and living standards other countries of similar size and stature enjoy.

 

The other side of that though, is that you really need to demonstrate that these things are only possible with independence, which is where Sturgeon has failed and failed badly. If she had picked up where the "Yes" campaign left off (and let's not forget, it came within a bawhair of succeeding), constantly looking at countries like Norway as the benchmark, pushed the devolution settlement to it's boundaries, the Scottish Parliament would still have been unable to deliver the standards it aspired to and at that point, how could anybody have objected to the idea of independence when the country was visibly being held back by the constraints of the Union? 

 

Instead of that kind of boldness, there's been...well, not much, really. What's the point in moaning about extra powers from Westminster if you don't push the ones you have to their boundaries or tell people what exactly it is you want to do with them? How can you really inspire people when your response to failing services or increasing poverty is to go "well, it's better than in England"? We rarely even get grand (yet depthless) promises from the SNP now, all we get is "it'll be a bit better". As it stands, it's not the Union that's the biggest barrier to fulfilling Scotland's potential, it's the Scottish Parliament arsing about, squabbling over scraps and about who can be the most bland. Push Holyrood to its boundaries and independence is the next logical step.

 

Perhaps a confident, bold independence movement will arise over the next year or so that can over-turn all of that, but it won't change the fact that the last five years have been spent tinkering about rather than trying to drive things as far forwards as possible. If those years had been used with the appropriate level of vision and brave leadership, independence would be a formality rather an eternal, tedious bunfight. We're not even discussing different visions now, just an endless stream of nonsense about procedure and it's dull as ****.

So, 'run the ****ing country to the best of your ability' first before looking at stupid referendums as a means of deflecting from the obvious downfalls you point out.

 

I know your views on indy, but also know that you're not that much of a fan of the SNP and their work of late. Sadly, many folk can't see by them and their failings to run the country in the here and now instead of side showing everything for a what is atm a complete pipe dream. 

 

Again, house in order first. 


Edited by TONofmemories, 25 April 2019 - 09:38 AM.

TIME FOR CHANGE!


#6 vikingTON

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Posted 25 April 2019 - 09:51 AM

So, 'run the ****ing country to the best of your ability' first before looking at stupid referendums as a means of deflecting from the obvious downfalls you point out.

 

I know your views on indy, but also know that you're not that much of a fan of the SNP and their work of late. Sadly, many folk can't see by them and their failings to run the country in the here and now instead of side showing everything for a what is atm a complete pipe dream. 

 

Again, house in order first. 

 

They quite clearly have run the country quite well - otherwise they wouldn't still be the completely dominant force in Scotland fully twelve years into their administration. Perhaps if the bitter Yoons could actually win an election in Scotland for a change then they might have a demonstrable point; but you can't, so you don't. 


The site is supposed to be a place for the extended 'family' of Morton supporters - having an affinity with people that you don't know, because you share a love of your local football club. It's not supposed to be about point scoring and showing how 'clever' or 'funny' you are, or just being downright rude and offensive to people you don't know, because you can get away with it. Unfortunately, it seems the classic case of people who have little standing/presence in real life, use this forum as a way of making themselves feel as if they are something. It's sad, and I've said that before..

So, having been on Morton forums for about 15 years I guess, I've had enough... well done t*ssers, another Morton supporter driven away. You can all feel happy at how 'clever' you are


#7 TONofmemories

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Posted 25 April 2019 - 09:59 AM

They're a 'dominant force' because idiots see them as a catalyst for independence despite their obvious failings. 12 years matters not a jot given the masses flock to them not for their ability to do good things, but because as i say they're seen as a vehicle for one thing only as opposed to governing this country effectively. 


TIME FOR CHANGE!


#8 vikingTON

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Posted 25 April 2019 - 10:02 AM

There's no actual evidence for that claim; it's simply a unionist trope to excuse away the fact that they're fucking shite at politics and can't lay a glove on a competent administration. 


The site is supposed to be a place for the extended 'family' of Morton supporters - having an affinity with people that you don't know, because you share a love of your local football club. It's not supposed to be about point scoring and showing how 'clever' or 'funny' you are, or just being downright rude and offensive to people you don't know, because you can get away with it. Unfortunately, it seems the classic case of people who have little standing/presence in real life, use this forum as a way of making themselves feel as if they are something. It's sad, and I've said that before..

So, having been on Morton forums for about 15 years I guess, I've had enough... well done t*ssers, another Morton supporter driven away. You can all feel happy at how 'clever' you are


#9 TONofmemories

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Posted 25 April 2019 - 10:12 AM

There's no actual evidence for that claim; it's simply a unionist trope to excuse away the fact that they're ****ing s***e at politics and can't lay a glove on a competent administration. 

^^ Blinded by their ability to appeal to the masses despite being utter garbage for the most part of their recent tenure. 

 

Sad. 


TIME FOR CHANGE!


#10 vikingTON

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Posted 25 April 2019 - 10:35 AM

^^^ doing it wrong


The site is supposed to be a place for the extended 'family' of Morton supporters - having an affinity with people that you don't know, because you share a love of your local football club. It's not supposed to be about point scoring and showing how 'clever' or 'funny' you are, or just being downright rude and offensive to people you don't know, because you can get away with it. Unfortunately, it seems the classic case of people who have little standing/presence in real life, use this forum as a way of making themselves feel as if they are something. It's sad, and I've said that before..

So, having been on Morton forums for about 15 years I guess, I've had enough... well done t*ssers, another Morton supporter driven away. You can all feel happy at how 'clever' you are


#11 vikingTON

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Posted 25 April 2019 - 10:36 AM

Imagine parroting the line of a Scottish Tory goon from yesterday and it just not working out for you. You hate to see it happen. 


The site is supposed to be a place for the extended 'family' of Morton supporters - having an affinity with people that you don't know, because you share a love of your local football club. It's not supposed to be about point scoring and showing how 'clever' or 'funny' you are, or just being downright rude and offensive to people you don't know, because you can get away with it. Unfortunately, it seems the classic case of people who have little standing/presence in real life, use this forum as a way of making themselves feel as if they are something. It's sad, and I've said that before..

So, having been on Morton forums for about 15 years I guess, I've had enough... well done t*ssers, another Morton supporter driven away. You can all feel happy at how 'clever' you are


#12 TONofmemories

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Posted 25 April 2019 - 10:41 AM

How's independence working out for you, champ?

 

Not very well


TIME FOR CHANGE!


#13 vikingTON

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Posted 25 April 2019 - 11:02 AM

Queen Nic called for a referendum less than 24 hours ago and you're already in full meltdown mode, so I'd say you're distinctly rattled about the prospect. 


The site is supposed to be a place for the extended 'family' of Morton supporters - having an affinity with people that you don't know, because you share a love of your local football club. It's not supposed to be about point scoring and showing how 'clever' or 'funny' you are, or just being downright rude and offensive to people you don't know, because you can get away with it. Unfortunately, it seems the classic case of people who have little standing/presence in real life, use this forum as a way of making themselves feel as if they are something. It's sad, and I've said that before..

So, having been on Morton forums for about 15 years I guess, I've had enough... well done t*ssers, another Morton supporter driven away. You can all feel happy at how 'clever' you are


#14 Alibi

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Posted 25 April 2019 - 11:08 AM

I'd agree that the SNP have been a bit bland on the indy matter over recent years.  However it's not correct to say that they are not doing their "day job" (copyright Jackson Carlaw) well.  Given the financial restrictions imposed by Westminster, they are not exactly flush with spare cash.  In my own experience of the Scottish NHS for example, it is extremely good an comprehensive, certainly in my part of the world.  I doubt any other government would do as well given that they appear to be thick as pigshit numpties.

 

I don't support all SNP policies (they should have got rid of council tax a long time ago, and the current gender self-id proposals are a ludicrous and illogical mess that would go down like Falkirk if more people had even hear about them, and there are several others with which I disagree), but I am an SNP member, and supporter in general terms.  The way Scotland has been mistreated during the Brexit negotiations (with the WM government going to the supreme court to over-rule decisions made by our parliament) is on its own justification for indyref2 even if Brexit ends up being cancelled.  I fully expect a request for a section 30 to be rejected, and I would like to know what will then happen - waiting until the next Scottish election is not a viable strategy as the same response will happen whichever cheek of the ToryLab arse is incumbent, so what is the plan?  It is ridiculous that we even have to ask for permission if we are a union of equals.

 

Nicola Sturgeon is a competent politician but I would like to see a wee bit more aggression, and for her to accept that playing by WM's rules is just going to end at a brick wall.  I would also like her to commit to our own EU referendum after indy, with all options on the table, so that those who would prefer EFTA or even (Hi, Andy) out of everything can have their say.  I know which option would win but it is not something that should be taken as a foundation stone of indy without us deciding it for ourselves.


"Any nation given the opportunity to regain its national sovereignty and which then rejects it is so far beneath contempt that it is hard to put words to it."

#15 TONofmemories

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Posted 25 April 2019 - 11:18 AM

Queen Nic called for a referendum less than 24 hours ago and you're already in full meltdown mode, so I'd say you're distinctly rattled about the prospect. 

Not at all. I just don't support them in their current guise. 

 

Until the start providing hard facts and mitigation measures for the concerns raised last time and actually start acting like civilised folk, i won't be backing them. 


TIME FOR CHANGE!


#16 GiGi

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Posted 25 April 2019 - 11:18 AM

I agree it's right to wait until brexit is settled first. But otherwise yes it's time for Independence.

I think it's clear the SNP while not perfect have done a good job and it's not hard when you look south. A simmering hotpot of racist, bloodthirsty gammon and a creationist, religious loonball tail wagging the shameful Tory dog.

Scotland can and will do much better. We are a wealthy, educated and resource rich country. The UK is a failing shambles.
 

Peter Weatherson is the greatest player since Ritchie, and should be assigned 'chairman for life' 


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#17 GiGi

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Posted 25 April 2019 - 11:27 AM

Meanwhile, our schools and health services need urgent attention. But let's not let that get in the way of another exit strategy. 

 

Run the ****ing country to the best of your ability. 

 

We've the best performing NHS in the UK even with one arm tied by Westminster. I think that should be pointed out and celebrated. The main UK parties have been trying to tear it up for decades. 


 

Peter Weatherson is the greatest player since Ritchie, and should be assigned 'chairman for life' 


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#18 vikingTON

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Posted 25 April 2019 - 11:31 AM

Not at all. I just don't support them in their current guise. 

 

Until the start providing hard facts and mitigation measures for the concerns raised last time and actually start acting like civilised folk, i won't be backing them. 

 

^^^ word salad


The site is supposed to be a place for the extended 'family' of Morton supporters - having an affinity with people that you don't know, because you share a love of your local football club. It's not supposed to be about point scoring and showing how 'clever' or 'funny' you are, or just being downright rude and offensive to people you don't know, because you can get away with it. Unfortunately, it seems the classic case of people who have little standing/presence in real life, use this forum as a way of making themselves feel as if they are something. It's sad, and I've said that before..

So, having been on Morton forums for about 15 years I guess, I've had enough... well done t*ssers, another Morton supporter driven away. You can all feel happy at how 'clever' you are


#19 EanieMeany

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Posted 25 April 2019 - 11:36 AM

I agree it's right to wait until brexit is settled first. But otherwise yes it's time for Independence.

I think it's clear the SNP while not perfect have done a good job and it's not hard when you look south. A simmering hotpot of racist, bloodthirsty gammon and a creationist, religious loonball tail wagging the shameful Tory dog.

Scotland can and will do much better. We are a wealthy, educated and resource rich country. The UK is a failing shambles.

 

I don't disagree with that, but again it comes down to what we're measuring against. Do we look down the road and say "well, we're better than that" or do we set our sights higher? It's certainly true that the SNP have done a better job than the car-crash that is Westminster, but if you want to sit the middle of the road merely ticking over then a car-crash you will inevitable become embroiled in one way or the other.

 

There's a whole host of things that can be done within Holyrood's remit that could make a big difference and move us towards the kind of country that any vision of independence should be striving for, but Sturgeon seems set on a "minimal disruption" path. Again, you won't convince people that it's worth the risk if you're not actively showing them a significantly different alternative - for the polls not to have shifted in any substantial, material way in the face of a monumentally vicious, incompetent Tory government is a failure, Brexit or no Brexit.

 

Plodding on as we are, on any front isn't really suitable for anyone. 


Edited by EanieMeany, 25 April 2019 - 11:37 AM.

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#20 TONofmemories

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Posted 25 April 2019 - 11:40 AM

^^^ word salad

Not really, Boss. 

 

The recent polls don't paint a very good picture for you to be honest. 

 

Must do better. 


TIME FOR CHANGE!