chris_mceleny Posted December 9, 2008 Share Posted December 9, 2008 Because if that's your only reason for believing in God then you can't really believe in him anyway. You are, in effect, forcing yourself to believe in him just to cover all the bases. I believe in god as i have the faith i'm reffering to people who dont. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chris_mceleny Posted December 9, 2008 Share Posted December 9, 2008 Cos there's more to it than that. There's been loads of different religions through history, each with their own gods, who's to say you're believing in the right one? And most of them can be a bit jealous as well, so you can't believe in them all to cover your bases. That's not really how it goes - the idea is that the big bang was the beginning of time and space, there is nothing before time just like there's nothing north of the north pole. Scientists are always coming up with hypotheses about what if anything lies outside the universe and how it came about, but they don't say "God did it" because that just leads to "then where did He come from?" It's taken millions of years of evolution to produce human intelligence, is it really likely that a god-like intelligence can come out of nowhere? He always was there always will is and always will be. Reminds me of brett hart - the best there is the best there was and the best there ever will be! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wee Dublin End Posted December 9, 2008 Share Posted December 9, 2008 Mon the Buddhists Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chrissiboi Posted December 9, 2008 Share Posted December 9, 2008 So if some deity exists which one ? the proddy god , the *potential ethnic slur removed* one , the Jewish one , Allah , Buhda etc and if there is only one why did he allow so many surely he should have at least patented the name ? So I take it we all believe in evolution ? So with all the cavemen worshipping the Sun or the moon when did god decide enough of this s***e and he wanted some recognition for his efforts . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TRVMP Posted December 9, 2008 Share Posted December 9, 2008 Crap point. Tell me who created the world and I'll believe that the world exists. The world is empirically verifiable, you nutcase. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SramTon Posted December 9, 2008 Share Posted December 9, 2008 If someone can satisfactorily explain to me who created God, then I'll believe in God. Crap point. Tell me who created the world and I'll believe that the world exists. No, it was a flippant point. I've already got a strong opinion on who (or rather what species) "created" God. "And in seven days God created the Egg" quote from the Gospel of the Chicken. Look at her riding pillions on Davy’s sea-bike, carrying an apoplectic macaw in a silver hoop. Oh, Morton, let’s go there this winter! Or learning the Japanese chinchona from that Kobe group, in a dress that looks like a blowtorch rising from one knee, and which should sell big in Texas. Morton, is that real fire? Happy, happy little girl! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TRVMP Posted December 9, 2008 Share Posted December 9, 2008 No, it was a flippant point. It is a fine point, because it's not easy for the credulous (e.g. Tom McB) to explain away the infinite regress that is the "first" cause. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom_McB Posted December 9, 2008 Share Posted December 9, 2008 It is a fine point, because it's not easy for the credulous (e.g. Tom McB) to explain away the infinite regress that is the "first" cause. Oh dear Oh dear. Credulous eh. Ah the arrogance and ignorance of youth. Not angry you understand, just sad. "Of all tyrannies, a tyranny exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It may be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end, for they do so with the approval of their consciences."The goal of Socialism is Communism- Lenin Je ne suis pas Marxiste : K Marx Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom_McB Posted December 9, 2008 Share Posted December 9, 2008 No, it was a flippant point. As was my reply. Thank fukk some of us have a sense of humour. It is a fine point, because it's not easy for the credulous (e.g. Tom McB) to explain away the infinite regress that is the "first" cause. To deal with your point: We live within space/time and yet barely understand the nature of space/time. It is surely possible to posit the existence of a being outwith our conception of the universe. A being for whom time and corporeal essence have no significance. Without time the notion of the creation of such a being meaningless. Genesis contains the phrase. “In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth,†Matter and time begin at the same moment, not too far from modern cosmology's take on the big bang. Funny isn't it, we struggle in our own universe to describe something as simple as an electron with words, only equations will be an apt description, yet we still try useless analogies like particles or waves to relate the micro world of the electron to our macroworld. We make the same error with God, how much more complicated it is to envisage a being outwith space time who is not bounded by our universe. "Of all tyrannies, a tyranny exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It may be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end, for they do so with the approval of their consciences."The goal of Socialism is Communism- Lenin Je ne suis pas Marxiste : K Marx Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SramTon Posted December 9, 2008 Share Posted December 9, 2008 It is a fine point, because it's not easy for the credulous (e.g. Tom McB) to explain away the infinite regress that is the "first" cause. Ah well, I intended it as a flippant point. Maybe it was a fine point flippantly made or a flippant point finely made. Which is back to my post about chicken and egg. Look at her riding pillions on Davy’s sea-bike, carrying an apoplectic macaw in a silver hoop. Oh, Morton, let’s go there this winter! Or learning the Japanese chinchona from that Kobe group, in a dress that looks like a blowtorch rising from one knee, and which should sell big in Texas. Morton, is that real fire? Happy, happy little girl! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TRVMP Posted December 9, 2008 Share Posted December 9, 2008 As was my reply. Thank fukk some of us have a sense of humour. To deal with your point: We live within space/time and yet barely understand the nature of space/time. It is surely possible to posit the existence of a being outwith our conception of the universe. A being for whom time and corporeal essence have no significance. Without time the notion of the creation of such a being meaningless. Genesis contains the phrase. Matter and time begin at the same moment, not too far from modern cosmology's take on the big bang. Funny isn't it, we struggle in our own universe to describe something as simple as an electron with words, only equations will be an apt description, yet we still try useless analogies like particles or waves to relate the micro world of the electron to our macroworld. We make the same error with God, how much more complicated it is to envisage a being outwith space time who is not bounded by our universe. None of this addresses who created that which created us which we cannot understand. How is "heaven and earth" supposed to mean "matter and time" except by extremely tenuous reaching? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TRVMP Posted December 9, 2008 Share Posted December 9, 2008 Oh dear Oh dear. Credulous eh. Yes. People who follow organised religion are by definition credulous as they are acting on something that they have been told, not seen. I make exceptions for those who have had personal mystical experiences, of course - like Joseph Smith. Ah the arrogance and ignorance of youth. Not angry you understand, just sad. Why would you be sad? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom_McB Posted December 9, 2008 Share Posted December 9, 2008 None of this addresses who created that which created us which we cannot understand. Erm, I think it does, existing outwith space time can remove the necessity to be created at some point in time. With no time the question of when did a being come into existence is meaningless. How is "heaven and earth" supposed to mean "matter and time" except by extremely tenuous reaching? Matter cannot exist without time nor time without matter. The creation of the heavens- the cosmos- occurred at the big bang. "Of all tyrannies, a tyranny exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It may be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end, for they do so with the approval of their consciences."The goal of Socialism is Communism- Lenin Je ne suis pas Marxiste : K Marx Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gordon Ottershaw Posted December 9, 2008 Share Posted December 9, 2008 Human beings don't need religion or a god! Just faith in the "Flying Spaghetti Monster" (and evolution of course) 5-1, Five bloody One! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TRVMP Posted December 9, 2008 Share Posted December 9, 2008 Erm, I think it does, existing outwith space time can remove the necessity to be created at some point in time. With no time the question of when did a being come into existence is meaningless. But the question of how is not meaningless. Do you need me to ask it for a third time? Matter cannot exist without time nor time without matter. The creation of the heavens- the cosmos- occurred at the big bang. How do you get that time was created when god created the heavens and the earth? Even allowing for this, how do we get that the earth was created at the same time as "the cosmos" when in fact it was not? How do you account for all that follows in genesis that can't be so neatly tied in via the revisionism of the credulous? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TRVMP Posted December 9, 2008 Share Posted December 9, 2008 Human beings don't need religion or a god! Just faith in the "Flying Spaghetti Monster" (and evolution of course) One does not require "faith" to believe in evolution via natural selection. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom_McB Posted December 9, 2008 Share Posted December 9, 2008 Yes. People who follow organised religion are by definition credulous as they are acting on something that they have been told, not seen. I'm not sure why the word organised is in that sentence. Let that pass though, acting on something they have been told not seen. Seeing's the thing then. Have you seen an electron? Why am I sad, the triteness of the comment about credulity, you assume you know exactly why I follow my religion. "Of all tyrannies, a tyranny exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It may be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end, for they do so with the approval of their consciences."The goal of Socialism is Communism- Lenin Je ne suis pas Marxiste : K Marx Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TRVMP Posted December 9, 2008 Share Posted December 9, 2008 I'm not sure why the word organised is in that sentence. Let that pass though, acting on something they have been told not seen. Seeing's the thing then. Have you seen an electron? I have seen sufficient evidence of the electron in action - e.g. via the cathode ray tube - to surmise that what we understand as an electron - a negatively charged sub-atomic particle - exists. I'm actually using a cathode ray tube television right now, and as I understand how it works I am confident enough to make the positive statement: electrons exist. I hardly think that is an act of "faith." Do you believe in the wind when a weather vane blows or do you ask if you can see it? Why am I sad, the triteness of the comment about credulity, you assume you know exactly why I follow my religion. If I had to guess I'd say it's because you were indoctrinated into it as a child, but there are always exceptions. I'll hold onto that assumption for now. Doubtless you'll correct me Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cet Homme Charmant Posted December 9, 2008 Share Posted December 9, 2008 If there is a God the one thing that strikes me is the unfairness of it all. Look at the number of religions there are in the world - and even branches and sects within religions - and the obvious point to make is that they can't all be right. Yet within each of these religions and sects you'll find those who are, or at least claim to be, 100% unwavering in their conviction that they're right. I think they call it 'faith'. Now, the 'faith' that someone follows is governed overwhelmingly by geography. So if we assume that there is only one God then it's going to be down to pot luck whether or not you're worshiping the right one. In other words, eternal salvation or damnation is down to accident of birth. That's a pish state of affairs if you ask me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TRVMP Posted December 9, 2008 Share Posted December 9, 2008 p.s. credulity isn't a "reason", it's how it happens. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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