100's Arrested After London Anti-cuts Demo

[Guest David Edwards]

That genuinely did make me LOL ! yes they do, they are the democratically elected (ie picked by the people) government chosen under the current system to represent the whole country.

So they have every mandate to do what they are doing in Scotland, same as they have for the

last 40-50 years without the same "mandate" in Scotland.

 

And, I would suggest, same as they will do for the next 40-50 years in the absence of something changing - and no matter how you dress it up Holyrood is no fecking better.

 

Different building, different faces, same chimps, same results.

 

Look at the figures again. The processes are failing when only 23% of the electorate can empower a government. And I would agrgue that, although the Scottish system isn't completely proportional, it's certainly more fair than the Westminster system.

[maccaboy]

Look at the figures again. The processes are failing when only 23% of the electorate can empower a government. And I would agrgue that, although the Scottish system isn't completely proportional, it's certainly more fair than the Westminster system.

 

Short of making voting compulsory, though, what can you do? Whether it's first-past-the-post or proportional representation, you can only count the votes of those who take the trouble to vote - and if that means that only 23% of those eligible voted for the party/ies in power, then we've got what we deserve.

 

 

 

 

[vikingTON]

That genuinely did make me LOL ! yes they do, they are the democratically elected (ie picked by the people) government chosen under the current system to represent the whole country.

 

Em, no they're not. The General Election chooses individual representatives, not a government. One of the parties in coalition has absolutely no legitimate right to back-track on its cuts policy in the space of weeks after the election. It is a sham of a democratic system and always has been. This is simply the worst squalid deal in recent parliamentary history.

 

So they have every mandate to do what they are doing in Scotland, same as they have for the

last 40-50 years without the same "mandate" in Scotland.

 

How did the Tory's 'mandate' for Scotland work out for them in the decade 1987 to 1997? How much public unrest was sparked by the poll tax? And their vote at the ballot box halved.

 

In actual reality the government has less of a mandate in Scotland because many of the areas of cuts are devolved, luckily enough. Unluckily, Scotland's budget is still handed down from Westminster by two parties who will have absolutely no legitimacy in the country by the time the votes are counted in May.

[vikingTON]

Short of making voting compulsory, though, what can you do? Whether it's first-past-the-post or proportional representation, you can only count the votes of those who take the trouble to vote - and if that means that only 23% of those eligible voted for the party/ies in power, then we've got what we deserve.

 

How many Liberal Democrat voters do you think agree with the present government programme? It's more than a compromise of coalition, it's a fundamental sell-out of economic policy to Gideon. Which is why their support has plummeted in the polls. Had they stuck to their principles a minority Tory government would have been in a much weaker position to ram through their policies, whether people like it or not. I'm of the opinion that weak parliamentary government is good for democracy.

[maccaboy]

How many Liberal Democrat voters do you think agree with the present government programme? It's more than a compromise of coalition, it's a fundamental sell-out of economic policy to Gideon. Which is why their support has plummeted in the polls. Had they stuck to their principles a minority Tory government would have been in a much weaker position to ram through their policies, whether people like it or not. I'm of the opinion that weak parliamentary government is good for democracy.

 

.......all of which has absolutely no relevance as a reply to my post, so why quote it?

 

 

[vikingTON]

.......all of which has absolutely no relevance as a reply to my post, so why quote it?

 

Yes it does, we clearly haven't 'got what we deserve' if those who even voted weren't actually voting for what we now have.

[maccaboy]

Yes it does, we clearly haven't 'got what we deserve' if those who even voted weren't actually voting for what we now have.

 

Make yer mind up - first you say "the General Election chooses individual representatives, not a government" (which, for once, you are correct in stating), then it's "those who voted weren't actually voting for what we now have" [ie a coalition government].

 

What's it to be? Are you saying we vote for individuals or we vote for a government?

 

And insofar as my "we got what we deserve" comment is concerned, it was more aimed at those who didn't bother to vote. And as a result of their apathy we, the overall electorate, collectively got what we deserved.

 

 

[vikingTON]

Make yer mind up - first you say "the General Election chooses individual representatives, not a government" (which, for once, you are correct in stating), then it's "those who voted weren't actually voting for what we now have" [ie a coalition government].

 

What's it to be? Are you saying we vote for individuals or we vote for a government?

 

We vote for individuals and of those individuals, a clear majority were opposed in May 2010 to the current agenda of fast, slashing cuts to spending and services. So we haven't 'got what we deserve' by any measure at all.

 

And insofar as my "we got what we deserve" comment is concerned, it was more aimed at those who didn't bother to vote. And as a result of their apathy we, the overall electorate, collectively got what we deserved.

 

Rubbish, apathy was a non-vote for the Tories as much as it was for every other party. Of those who contributed to democracy they then see their democratic will trampled over by a squalid combination of sell-outs and small-state toffs, with no recourse in a second democratically-elected chamber (look at the battles in Congress across the pond to see how it should work).

 

So will that breed more or less apathy against the current democratic system?

 

[maccaboy]

We vote for individuals and of those individuals, a clear majority were opposed in May 2010 to the current agenda of fast, slashing cuts to spending and services. So we haven't 'got what we deserve' by any measure at all.

 

Rubbish, apathy was a non-vote for the Tories as much as it was for every other party.

 

Of those who contributed to democracy they then see their democratic will trampled over by a squalid combination of sell-outs and small-state toffs, with no recourse in a second democratically-elected chamber (look at the battles in Congress across the pond to see how it should work).

 

1st para: yes we have, by dint of either a ) not voting or b ) voting for the "wrong" person as far as their party affiliations go.

 

2nd para: hmm....... as you are so fond of saying: proof please ?

 

3rd para: the "democratic will" of the voters, what's that when it's at home?? A fancy name for expressing our opinions by voting, maybe? We vote for individuals, as you eventually agreed, and those duly elected individuals then by necessity get together in their different factions and govern. A majority of us may or may not like what they do or how they do it, but "democratic will"? That's just mouth music. We vote, those we vote into power make decisions, end of. You're confusing generally-perceived opinion with something it isn't.

 

 

[vikingTON]

We vote, those we vote into power make decisions, end of. You're confusing generally-perceived opinion with something it isn't.

 

What a downright creepy view of legitimate government you have. You're confusing an elective dictatorship with a truly legitimate democracy.

[maccaboy]

What a downright creepy view of legitimate government you have. You're confusing an elective dictatorship with a truly legitimate democracy.

 

nonsense.

 

 

[Tom_McB]

I see that mobs of yobs (I refuse to call them anything else, 'anarchists' is too dignified a term for them) responsible for causing mayhem in London following the anti-cuts demo, have been rounded up by the Met Polis. No excuses for their crass behaviour and no doubt they'll be given their just deserts.

 

The cost of their mayhem probably amounts to a hundred thousand or few, so they might be looking forward to fairly long stretches 'At Her Majesty's Pleasure'.

 

But what about the cost of the mayhem caused by the bankers, a cost amounting to trillions, a cost borne by taxpayers? What justice is applied here?

 

The answer is sadly none, not from this most regressive and unrepresentative of governments we've had to suffer in years. Swindlers and gamblers are being rewarded massively, and the most vulnerable in society are paying the price in cuts to social services.

 

And so it goes. A million pound bonus for one who laid waste to a nation's economy, resulting in thousand upon thousands of job losses, wreaking havoc with ordinary people's livelihoods along the way; and a stretch in jail for the 'anarchist' involved in petty vandalism.

 

Edit to add: And where's the justice for the politicians that gave the bankers free rein?

 

OK Mr E, I'll bite

 

As to the bourgeois rentamob pseudo-anarchists. Utterly in agreement.

 

It doesn't bear comparison with the bankers though, what they did was not unlawful. Yes there is a fault in the structure of banking that must be addressed through legislation but the legislation was not in place whgen Fred and his boys fukked up whilst helping themselves

 

The current government is the most regressive in years? Illegal war in Iraq anyone? 1/2 million dead and counting all on the basis of lies fed to the parliament and people. You may not like Nick and Dave but they don't have the blood on their hands that Blair and Dr Reid have.

 

[Guest David Edwards]

OK Mr E, I'll bite

 

As to the bourgeois rentamob pseudo-anarchists. Utterly in agreement.

 

It doesn't bear comparison with the bankers though, what they did was not unlawful. Yes there is a fault in the structure of banking that must be addressed through legislation but the legislation was not in place whgen Fred and his boys fukked up whilst helping themselves

 

The current government is the most regressive in years? Illegal war in Iraq anyone? 1/2 million dead and counting all on the basis of lies fed to the parliament and people. You may not like Nick and Dave but they don't have the blood on their hands that Blair and Dr Reid have.

 

My dislike for Blair & Co. greatly exceeds that for Nick and Dave. And I'll qualify the term regressive to read 'socially regressive'. Have no doubts, the ultimate aim of the cuts agenda is the abolition of the welfare state.

There's the injustice: the poor, the sick and disabled didn't bankrupt the country, but they'll be left to bear the consequences. Meantime, the real culprits prosper.

[dirty dingus]

I think voting should be compulsory so we get a fair representation of the kuntry. A lot of the well less off are too busy surviving in s***holes like here and see it as pointless as blue and red are the same. I also think many are worried about the voters role being used as a device to chase debt. If they require me by law to fill in a census then i think we should be forced to say who is in charge. It could be quite a good laugh with the celebrity party being the 3rd force. Jeremy kyle in charge of home affairs, stacy solomon edukayshun, and Helen mirren could be queen for 6 month dale winton for the other. I'd also like to see les dennis as leader, so when on question time he can say we asked 100 people what they would like the government to do.

My major problem with the protests is it seems as though it's self seeking types who are kicking off not the true masses where apathy rules.

[chrissiboi]

OK Mr E, I'll bite

 

As to the bourgeois rentamob pseudo-anarchists. Utterly in agreement.

 

It doesn't bear comparison with the bankers though, what they did was not unlawful. Yes there is a fault in the structure of banking that must be addressed through legislation but the legislation was not in place whgen Fred and his boys fukked up whilst helping themselves

 

The current government is the most regressive in years? Illegal war in Iraq anyone? 1/2 million dead and counting all on the basis of lies fed to the parliament and people. You may not like Nick and Dave but they don't have the blood on their hands that Blair and Dr Reid have.

Are we not heading the same way in Libya (UN mandate or not- I thought it was to halt the genocide from both sides , we have the US doing what it does best and us hanging onto the coat tails)

 

Blair and many others should be up for War Crimes so how can we wade into Libya with such a one sided tract and think others won't .

 

The banking system, I have no confidence in with regards to lessons learned or legislation to ensure it does not occur again.

 

My sympathies are for the young people who through no fault of their own will have to endure debt at what looks like will be 9.5k per annum.( free in Scotland at this time but this is UK debt ,so you have to open up the issue ) Perhaps a fairer way would be to ask all those who recieved a free education to pay remuneration.

 

 

[dirty dingus]

Just a general point on mp's smp's etc do these folk have to give tony blair copright dough for puppet hand movements when trying to STATE a point. It grinds my gears

[Tom_McB]

Are we not heading the same way in Libya (UN mandate or not- I thought it was to halt the genocide from both sides , we have the US doing what it does best and us hanging onto the coat tails)

 

Blair and many others should be up for War Crimes so how can we wade into Libya with such a one sided tract and think others won't .

The UN mandate is the thing though, mibbies, just mibbies North Africa might end up with a swathe of democracies.

When we waded into SErbia that was no bad thing. Though bawjaws Eck though differently.

 

My sympathies are for the young people who through no fault of their own will have to endure debt at what looks like will be 9.5k per annum.( free in Scotland at this time but this is UK debt ,so you have to open up the issue ) Perhaps a fairer way would be to ask all those who received a free education to pay remuneration.

At this time is the operative phrase, that isn't sustainable.

Paying later means it isn't free either.

 

 

[Tom_McB]

My dislike for Blair & Co. greatly exceeds that for Nick and Dave. And I'll qualify the term regressive to read 'socially regressive'. Have no doubts, the ultimate aim of the cuts agenda is the abolition of the welfare state.

There's the injustice: the poor, the sick and disabled didn't bankrupt the country, but they'll be left to bear the consequences. Meantime, the real culprits prosper.

I'll disagree about the abolition of the welfare state, though changing the statist model of healthcare to the French, German, Dutch etc models would seem right to me.

 

[Guest David Edwards]

I'll disagree about the abolition of the welfare state, though changing the statist model of healthcare to the French, German, Dutch etc models would seem right to me.

 

No surprises that we disagree. The Tory party has a squalid history of opposition to each and every progressive cause that presents. Big Society Dave's lot is no different. Terminology has changed, e.g. privatisation is now known as marketisation, but the effect is the same : social division.

[Tom_McB]

No surprises that we disagree. The Tory party has a squalid history of opposition to each and every progressive cause that presents. Big Society Dave's lot is no different. Terminology has changed, e.g. privatisation is now known as marketisation, but the effect is the same : social division.

 

Progressive causes Mr E?

 

Would anyone seriously want to go back to BT being the monopoly provider of telecoms? We all remember the magnificent cars provided by nationalised British Leyland, and how the nationalised NHS provides superior outcomes to the continental models of healthcare.

Except in each case I mentioned the nationalised version was/is inferior to its counterparts.