The Rc Church

[Tonsilitis]

You're throwing the baby out with the bathwater. It wasn't Catholics who started riots across Scotland in the 1780s, or ran on anti-Catholic political parties in the 1930s. State schooling successfully integrated the vast majority of Catholics into society as a whole and through an educated class has been the prime mover behind the removal of sectarianism. That a thick uneducated rump in both sectors remains is a problem that no footering with schools with solve. You can't polish a turd, not even bigoted turds.

 

For goodness can we live in the here and now! What happened in 1780 has no relevance now in terms of the society we live in. Slavery was still fine then as well! Should we take the argument a bit further back to the inquisitions? That period is not relevant today! Nor is the anachronistic monarchy and rules of parliament you spout about.

 

I agree Catholic schools possibly did have a place and a role in the first half of the 20th century but they have achieved the purpose they were established for. Now, all they are about is maintaining the grip the priesthood has over its flock and that should end. Give people the facts on religion but let them make their own minds as to their beliefs.

 

Sectarianism is a thing mostly of the lower knuckle dragging classes. Guys with your IQ are easily able to rise above it. What is surprising is that you can't see what those of us who did not go through the brainwashing can.

 

 

[chris_mceleny]

For goodness can we live in the here and now! What happened in 1780 has no relevance now in terms of the society we live in. Slavery was still fine then as well! Should we take the argument a bit further back to the inquisitions? That period is not relevant today! Nor is the anachronistic monarchy and rules of parliament you spout about.

 

I agree Catholic schools possibly did have a place and a role in the first half of the 20th century but they have achieved the purpose they were established for. Now, all they are about is maintaining the grip the priesthood has over its flock and that should end. Give people the facts on religion but let them make their own minds as to their beliefs.

 

Sectarianism is a thing mostly of the lower knuckle dragging classes. Guys with your IQ are easily able to rise above it. What is surprising is that you can't see what those of us who did not go through the brainwashing can.

 

what would you say their place and role was and what purpose have they achieved then ?

[The greenock guvnor]

the first highlighted is a rather weird statement, in denial as i disagree with your opinion? you must have fun watching question time on a thursday night. as for you taxes, i dont think catholic schools cost the taxpayer that much more as seen as how they are all over capacity these schools would need to exist to anyway to cater for the numbers. and finally you must be a good painter and decorator with that whitewash brush of yours. please find a statement anyone has made on this thread about denying the events in ireland happend or that there was no cover up, if not please apologise for your lies and say 1 our father 2 hail mary's and 3 glory be's

 

1)You are in denial in the sense that not to give certain positions in a school is justified in your view but do not explain why? one person here said it is because they wouldn't know how to say prayers. Others have said it doesn't happen in my Roman Catholic schools and berated those who have said it does. saying it is anti catholic views. To defend it is denial in the face of overwhelming evidence it is unjust to do so.This practice is obviously wrong on many levels and causes diversion,inequality and secterianism in my opinion. To avoid giving answers on why we should believe in it and fund it is denial. Ignore it and it will continue or attack it and they might be scared to tackle it is the old cliched policy.

2)Don't worry I was berating the vatican who were and are still in denial about the mass amount of sex abuse that happened in Boston for example and everywhere else and have certain rules on how to "deal" with it.

3)So please anyone find a statement where I said that you specifically did say that did not happen in Ireland .

4)No don't bother dictating to me what to say and do .l I will choose what to say and when and where to say it and what to believe in and no man can force me to do it . Not in my belief system.

5) Couldn't care less if its minimal. Which it is not. Get your funding by all means from The Vatican treasures and teach whatever you wish to. Do not expect me to go along with the unjustified process of using other people who disagree with your beliefs earnings to fund your system.

Why is this not funded by the vatican then ?

[The greenock guvnor]

so if i want to start persecuting protestants take over the throne and deem that only muslims can be the monarch as the monarch is now the head of the british church of islam this would be okay with you?

 

No problem as long as you ok it for a lesbian women to become The Pope. and I would check out if I was you what a monarchy is?

[maccaboy]

Seriously, four pages and the majority who are normally sensible posters but they're just outing themselves as bigots with an agenda against catholic schools.

 

 

If this was a thread aimed at denying muslims the right to an education, it would make the Greenock Telegraph amid some Morton messageboard race hate headline. There would also be cries of condemnation by some of the self-righteous and sanctimonious on here. However, the majority of catholics in this country are white indigenous britons, therefore it is acceptable in the eyes of many on here to discriminate and show intolerance against them.

 

Re the above, having read and contributed to this thread I think you're wrong. In the main there has been criticism of the concept of separate schools and of some of the Catholic church's draconian rules - but very little against Catholics per se. Having an opinion about separate schools is not necessarily "an agenda against Catholic schools" - that's a very defensive attitude. Care to tell us why you think there are sufficient good points about separate Catholic schools to outweigh the bad?

 

And re your argument in the second para about discrimination - care to adress my point about the headmistress in a Catholic school who's afraid to marry a Christian who isn't Catholic? Or do you think that's right and proper?

 

 

 

 

 

 

[leyTON]

iv not been following this religously (punnnnnn) did someone seeriously suggest nuns were prevalent in a teaching capacity in catholic schools?

[vikingTON]

1) Once again stop answering your statements to make it seem I made those statements. I was talking about the increase of 5000 in 1872 to the present. So don't spin that.

 

There were more practicing Catholics in both Scotland and the UK in 1918 than there are today. so your idea that it is Catholic voting pressure preventing a repeal is just nonsense, frankly, and I suspect that if you have a modicum of intelligence you would have accepted that and stopped digging a hole pages back.

 

2) Yes it is as we were talking about the Irish case and the Catholic heiracrchy and it enivatibly led to its craving to keep power at all costs.

What power? The Catholic monarchy in scotland was brought down in the 1560s and Prebyterianism established as the Scottish faith in 1690. Catholicism has had no official power in Scotland since Mary Queen of Scots.

 

4)Kant is at the back of the queue. Dear oh dear. You want to stop reading Tom Devine books as even Tom Devine would be embarrased by that statement.

 

Please provide Kant's writings on the development of Scottish society in the 19th and 20th centuries please. In your own time.

 

5) The Enlightenment is THE major influence on todays society and in fact ask Tom Devine if Democracy, Freedom of speech and the education system etc would have existed without this theory.

In what way is that relevant to the anti-Catholic riots of 1779? it was not at all an Enlightenment movement and if you think that then you are in urgent need of reappraising your grasp of:

1) What the Enlightenment was

2) The context of Enlightenment Scotland

 

Until then your hectoring is redundant as you are ignorant of the facts.

 

Your obvious derogatory name calling shows everybody that to defend your beliefs you attack those who question it. Grow up and read more than one book. You are obviously very bigoted in your mindset.

 

Funnily enough professor Richard Finlay and almost every other Scottish academic agrees with Devine's analysis. The only bigot here is the one harping on about Ireland and why anti-Catholic sectarian riots were the vanguard of the Enlightenment.

 

Vikingtons points are biased to say the least and lets discuss anti protestant, anti jewish anti any other religion bias and persecution by the catholic church then and now.

The Age of Enlightenment movement and the relating events worldwide were not anti catholic as you describe it and believe but to take the power away from the Pope and the vatican and its corrupt dictatorial system of control and gave many freedoms and opportunitys u and I still have today and take for granted. Equality is the most famous one.

 

You're clearly, clearly confusing the Reformation with the Enlightenment. This is why you're so fundamentally wrong.

 

Catholic power was summarily removed from Scotland a full 200 years before Glasgow and Edinburgh started rioting at the prospect of tolerating a faith other than Presbyterianism. It was nothing other than a display of sectarianism in it's most condensed form.

 

In 18th century Glasgow there were more anti-Catholic societies than practicing Catholics. Naturally, I blame the schools.

[Guest David Edwards]

Sectarianism is a thing mostly of the lower knuckle dragging classes. Guys with your IQ are easily able to rise above it. What is surprising is that you can't see what those of us who did not go through the brainwashing can.

 

Like Donald Findlay? Naw, don't kid yourself. Bigots come from all classes, supposedly smart as well as dumb. This messageboard is proof positive.

[vikingTON]

For goodness can we live in the here and now! What happened in 1780 has no relevance now in terms of the society we live in. Slavery was still fine then as well! Should we take the argument a bit further back to the inquisitions? That period is not relevant today! Nor is the anachronistic monarchy and rules of parliament you spout about.

 

Of course it's relevant. Scotland has a long established history of religious bigotry, which makes your assertion that schooling is the problem woefully, woefully misguided.

[puggsy_ton]

Of course it's relevant. Scotland has a long established history of religious bigotry, which makes your assertion that schooling is the problem woefully, woefully misguided.

 

It gently* fans the flames

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

*REALLY REALLY REALLY FANS THE FLAMES

[leyTON]

puggsy is right in a way, schooliung can lead to increased prevelance of what i call "plastic paddy syndrome". i.e people who h ave mc in their name thinking their as irish as baileys.

my old (catholic) school is inexplicably having an irish themed ceilidh this weekend, despite it being the weekend closest to the celebration of scotlands patron saint

[gmfc_stinny_gmfc]

The thing that gets me is how people are shocked by this news... its one of the worst kept secrets and it has taken its time to surface.

 

The church has and always will have to much protection.

[Rhubarb Mess]

Pull up the drawbridge, batten down the hatches, shove your own head up yer own erse...the Kaffliks think this is all an attack on them..

 

They just don't get it. Practice your religion but keep it out of School.

 

Is there any other subject that has no proof of reality what-so-ever being taught as fact?

 

If we brainwashed kids with The Wizard of Oz as the basis of a religion do you think they would grow up thinking that the Wizard was in fact some sort of almighty being?

 

Fairy stories, nothing but fairy stories. Believed by the insane.

[The greenock guvnor]

Of course it's relevant. Scotland has a long established history of religious bigotry, which makes your assertion that schooling is the problem woefully, woefully misguided.

 

Yes and the RC church have never had any sort of bigotry as long if not longer than you care to believe or educate people on.

Its the old story let us wipe out the real true history of events.

If we do not mention it or recreate or educate then folk will forget or will not question or doubt what we really act like and believe and acted like.

And no it unfortunately it is you that is misguided but that is your freedom to believe that. Just do not advocate that nonsense to some how justify paedophiles and the fact the catholic schooling is state funded.

Yer methods have not worked for hundreds of years and will not work. Try a new tactic because the same old method of dealing with obvious flaws and controversial topics which can be absolutely knocked for six is not mentioned or discussed when questioned on it; or its aggresively handled calling it anti catholic and sectarianism and its a method used by extremists on Islam calling it Islamaphobia to make people back off. You still do not answer many questions and no matter how many times you lie it is still a lie in my book.

[gmfc_stinny_gmfc]

As frankie boyle said the vatican is where they have the biggest gathering of peedo's in the world....well maybe apart from Ireland.

[Tonsilitis]

Of course it's relevant. Scotland has a long established history of religious bigotry, which makes your assertion that schooling is the problem woefully, woefully misguided.

Read what I say you little toerag! I did not say schooling is the sole problem. I said that making schools strictly secular would be a big step on the way to dealing with sectarianism. It is not the sole answer and clearly there are other issues to be addressed.

 

As for comparing me to Donald Finlay, I take complete exception to that. I have no bias against Catholics. My son is married to one who is about to give me my first grandchild. My best pal until the date of his death was Catholic. Of course there are bigots on both sides of the divide society has created which you apparently want to continue.

 

If you want to consider bigots, have a real look at the priesthood and how they discriminate. Why are there priests on selection panels for positions in every Catholic school?

 

Look, I am not denying you the right to pursue your religion if that is what you want. I would just prefer that it was separated from schools and that we abandon the whole concept of bringing kids up to believe they are somehow different from other kids. If you want to hide behind stupid accusations of bigotry for anyone who thinks like me then you have a significantly smaller mind than I credited you with.

[vikingTON]

Yes and the RC church have never had any sort of bigotry as long if not longer than you care to believe or educate people on.

Its the old story let us wipe out the real true history of events.

If we do not mention it or recreate or educate then folk will forget or will not question or doubt what we really act like and believe and acted like.

And no it unfortunately it is you that is misguided but that is your freedom to believe that. Just do not advocate that nonsense to some how justify paedophiles and the fact the catholic schooling is state funded.

Yer methods have not worked for hundreds of years and will not work. Try a new tactic because the same old method of dealing with obvious flaws and controversial topics which can be absolutely knocked for six is not mentioned or discussed when questioned on it; or its aggresively handled calling it anti catholic and sectarianism and its a method used by extremists on Islam calling it Islamaphobia to make people back off. You still do not answer many questions and no matter how many times you lie it is still a lie in my book.

 

How is it a lie to call the anti-Catholic riots of 1779 a sectarian riot?

It is, however a lie to say that it was part of the process of the Enlightenment, which you have said. The only person lying here is you.

 

Read what I say you little toerag! I did not say schooling is the sole problem. I said that making schools strictly secular would be a big step on the way to dealing with sectarianism. It is not the sole answer and clearly there are other issues to be addressed.

 

So why did it take you so little to jump from from paedophilia to Catholic schools? Every one of your posts reeks of agenda.

There is no evidence whatsoever that a secular state schooling orthodoxy (which the Non-denominational setup is NOT) would curb sectarianism in any way shape or form. It's a typical 'common sense' proposal by numpties who can't accept that the country of their birth has absorbed bigotry into the fabric of it's culture.

[Alibi]

you stated non catholics could not get jobs in catholic schools, this is not the case it makes perfect sense that these positions should be catholics. do you think harriet harmans equality bill should also mean that you should have a case of discrimination if you want to be a priest but they wont let you beacause you are not a catholic?

 

That comparison is beyond parody. You miss so many points that you should be re-named Airdrie.

[Tonsilitis]

How is it a lie to call the anti-Catholic riots of 1779 a sectarian riot?

It is, however a lie to say that it was part of the process of the Enlightenment, which you have said. The only person lying here is you.

So why did it take you so little to jump from from paedophilia to Catholic schools? Every one of your posts reeks of agenda.

There is no evidence whatsoever that a secular state schooling orthodoxy (which the Non-denominational setup is NOT) would curb sectarianism in any way shape or form. It's a typical 'common sense' proposal by numpties who can't accept that the country of their birth has absorbed bigotry into the fabric of it's culture.

The jump to catholic schools was simply in the context of governments afraid to tackle the catholic church. Possibly you have dyslexia and can't read properly or maybe even you have an agenda. My agenda is to speak against the concept of state funded sectarianism as represent by the catholic schools. That is my belief stated as clearly as I can make it. If you think that makes me bigoted, then I question which of us it is who is small minded!

 

I agree that there is no evidence that secular schooling helps curb sectarianism in much the same way as there is no evidence of global warming. You either believe it or you don't and those who don't will happily deny it until the floods drown them!

[Tom_McB]

My best pal until the date of his death was Catholic. Of course there are bigots on both sides of the divide society has created which you apparently want to continue.

 

We both knew him. He attended Catholic Schools, taught in St Col's and his children went there.

 

The fact that he liked you says a lot about you, and that's good.