Peter Stahl

[chrissiboi]

Been there myself Chrissi, quite interesting to see i agree.

 

Been to loads of Concentration camps also all over europe and you can see the devastation there. Every country has its history of devastation but that one you bring up is quite true.,

 

Ghost it was really unnerving just to see the pictures of a flattened city . They were running a film reel from a bombing raid . How the baroque city was a centre of culture and of no military significency and how the war had already been won by the allies .

 

Although during the war the city house over 250 type of industry ,, thats alot of baby milk factories

 

Saying that there was abit in German saying the only people to benefit were the Jews in the rail cars destined for the concentration campwho escaped . Its words like that make you wish to applaud bomber Harris .

[44 Tonne Ton]

He would have been doing some of us a favour!

 

 

 

 

 

[Guest David Edwards]

I'd be interested to know what your thoughts on WW2 are Trick. The US wasn't exactly 'in like Flint' and Britain declared war on Japan before the US did after Pearl Harbour.

What do you think of the accusation that the US was quite happy with Nazi Germany (before 1939) as it was a buffer against the Soviets?

There are counter allegations that FDR was secretly a member of the IWW who always wanted to go to war with the nazis but was thwarted by the prevailing isolationist mood of the US. Furthermore, there's the famous allegation that he had prior knowledge of Pearl Harbour and kept schtum in order to bring the US into the war. Conspiracy theories, don't ya just love 'em.

[NewTon]

"Britain" (as in the public) never voted becasue it was a complete Monarchy back then. Britain (and France) went to war with Germany after Germany invaded Poland. Therefore, Britain did "vote" since they warned Germany not to invade Poland.

 

If the allies (all of them) had reacted they way they should have when German rearmed the Rhine valley, took over Austria, and/or taken the Sudetenland in Czechoslovakia, then maybe WW2 would never have happened....

What do you expect, Brother, from someone who's never served.....?

 

No offense to PieHut, but those who haven't served usually have no clue.

 

 

"Britain" (as in the public) never voted becasue it was a complete Monarchy back then.

 

Gidday Trick,

 

please explain mate

 

Are you suggesting that the British monarchy has changed in the last 70 years ?

 

 

 

 

[NewTon]

All in all the Nazi bombing of Greenock caused �300,000 worth of repairs.

 

Apologies if someone earlier has cracked that one as I can't be bothered reading the rest of the thread.

 

 

and a lot more than that in buildings that were demolished.

 

 

plus the whisky that was lost

 

 

 

 

[NewTon]

There are counter allegations that FDR was secretly a member of the IWW who always wanted to go to war with the nazis but was thwarted by the prevailing isolationist mood of the US.

 

Furthermore, there's the famous allegation that he had prior knowledge of Pearl Harbour and kept schtum in order to bring the US into the war. Conspiracy theories, don't ya just love 'em.

 

 

Allegation or fact ?

 

I have seen documentaries that state that Japanese Navy codes had been broken before Pearl Harbor.

 

And that the US Navy KNEW as early as November that they were coming.

 

 

 

[Guest David Edwards]

Allegation or fact ?

 

I have seen documentaries that state that Japanese Navy codes had been broken before Pearl Harbor.

 

And that the US Navy KNEW as early as November that they were coming.

 

Who knows? I've seen documentaries that state the Americans never landed on the moon, or that 9/11 was a a put up job by the CIA. I've always admired FDR and I seriously doubt whether he could have been so cold bloodedly cynical to sacrifice lives in such a way. But then again, he was a politician after all.

[NewTon]

 

 

 

Gidday David,

 

You don't believe National Geographic ?

 

 

I believed all the native ladies in my grandfather's National Geographics in the 1960s.

 

Nae Photoshop in those days.

 

 

http://plasma.nationalgeographic.com/pearl...ies/story4.html

 

 

 

 

 

[Guest David Edwards]

Gidday David,

 

You don't believe National Geographic ?

 

 

I believed all the native ladies in my grandfather's National Geographics in the 1960s.

 

Nae Photoshop in those days.

 

 

http://plasma.nationalgeographic.com/pearl...ies/story4.html

 

[Guest David Edwards]

Gidday David,

 

You don't believe National Geographic ?

 

 

I believed all the native ladies in my grandfather's National Geographics in the 1960s.

 

Nae Photoshop in those days.

 

 

http://plasma.nationalgeographic.com/pearl...ies/story4.html

As I meant to say................ No, I don't believe everything in National Geographic, The Readers Digest or The Morning Star for that matter.

[Davie McArthur]

The problem with conspiracy theories is that they can never be disproved.

[NewTon]

As I meant to say................ No, I don't believe everything in National Geographic, The Readers Digest or The Morning Star for that matter.

 

 

 

or the Greenock Telegraph ?

 

 

 

 

[mortonjag]

The problem with conspiracy theories is that they can never be disproved.

Not a problem for the theorists!

[Trick37]

Still awaiting the link to the whole story. I'd like to pass it on to my mom, too.

 

 

"Britain" (as in the public) never voted becasue it was a complete Monarchy back then.

 

Gidday Trick,

 

please explain mate

 

Are you suggesting that the British monarchy has changed in the last 70 years ?

 

 

Never suggested that at all, Iain. Although the "Monarch" did change.....

 

[leyTON]

I agree with your original post ref the guy was only doing his job.

 

But

 

I wish you would get to f*** with this constant innocent Iraqi's s***e you bile on here, you really do my f***ing head in at times.

i think peolple are entitled to be upset about iraq

 

"Britain" (as in the public) never voted becasue it was a complete Monarchy back then. Britain (and France) went to war with Germany after Germany invaded Poland. Therefore, Britain did "vote" since they warned Germany not to invade Poland.

 

If the allies (all of them) had reacted they way they should have when German rearmed the Rhine valley, took over Austria, and/or taken the Sudetenland in Czechoslovakia, then maybe WW2 would never have happened....

What do you expect, Brother, from someone who's never served.....?

 

No offense to PieHut, but those who haven't served usually have no clue.

you are right aboiut the allies trick, the yanks way of operating in that war was the most effective and humane

 

 

[Guest Ghost]

i think peolple are entitled to be upset about iraq

 

I didnt say they didnt, but does that mean we are to blame at the end of the day ie the troops ?

 

Was waiting for your comment.

 

As per usual

[leyTON]

I didnt say they didnt, but does that mean we are to blame at the end of the day ie the troops ?

 

Was waiting for your comment.

 

As per usual

so that was piehuttss point?

if, as you say, the troops arent to blame in iraq, qhy are german bombers to blame in greenock?

 

[Guest Ghost]

so that was piehuttss point?

if, as you say, the troops arent to blame in iraq, qhy are german bombers to blame in greenock?

 

What the f*** are you slevering at. This thread has gone way off topic.

 

But for some reason certain folk have changed it to their own liking.

 

 

 

 

[TonInDublin]

My father fought in the second world war in the Navy. He was involved in Atlantic Convoy duty, basically becoming target practice for the U-Boats as the convoys attempted to sedn enough supplies to Russia to keep the Russians civilians fed. In his most savage battle, his ship, The Jamaica, was sent in to deliver the coup de grace to The Scharnhorst. The Scharnhorst was crippled but instead of surrendering to overwhelming British ships, the order was sent to fight to the last bullet - and with her superior guns still lobbing off dangerous shells the decision was taken to sink her. My father and the crew knew that in The Barents Sea the expected lifespan in the water was maybe five to ten minutes so after she was sunk they steamed in and threw cargo nets to the German sailors in the sea. After HMS Scorpion took on 36 of them the admiralty wired the ships that there was U-Boats in the area, so they sailed away, leaving the remaining 1900 men of the Scharnhorst to their fate in the Barents Sea. The men from Scorpion were subsequently transferred to The Jamaica (ironically the ship that had sunk them) and my father got a picture of them sitting on deck - which they signed. My father noted that these men were treated as comrades whilst on board, not as the enemy. The common British sailor could see past the orders of Nazi Germany or The British Empire - they were sailors doing their job - same way the British guys were. He said that there was no animosity, no retribution and no recriminations - remember the two sisters (Scharnhorst and Gneisenau) had previously sunk The Glorious, The Acasta, The Reknown, and The Ardent with the loss of thousands of British lives.

 

Not one officer survived - they chose death before dishonour and all went down with the boat. The captain personally checked each lifejacket as men went into the water and told all of them to tell people back home that they had done their duty. My father reckoned their bravery and seamanship on the day were symptomatic of all that was good and honourable about Naval tradition.

 

Their bravery was recognised by the sailors who had fought them .... in his book 74 Degrees North, Pope states that after Admiral Bruce Fraser briefed his officers on board Duke of York he close his briefing by saying "Gentlemen, the battle against Scharnhorst has ended in victory for us. I hope that if any of you are ever called upon to lead a ship into action against an opponent many times superior, you will command your ship as gallantly as Scharnhorst was commanded today".

 

So when I read of the likes of Peter Stahl I think of peope like my father - victims of timing, victims of circumstance and heroes to a man. They had no specific axe to grind with the German people as a whole, in the same way Stahl had no axe to grind with the British people. There was an evil in the world call Fascism and the Nazis were propogating a genocidal plan against countries, religions and races throughout the world. These brave men and women were answering the call to stop that. Peter Stahl was no more than another victim of Nazi Germany. A brave man, a proud man and a man who did his duty as he saw fit.

 

My mum was at home during The Blitz - she lived in Chalmers St - and remembers that on one of the nights when Greenock was targetted that the German planes came in much lower than normal and people who were running to the hills were strafed as they did so. Whilst anti-German sentiment was strong, it was aimed at the people who orchestrated the reign of terror, not at the pilots who carried out the bombing raids. Indeed, if you really wanted to get her back up all you needed to talk about was Lord Haw Haw. He epitomised for her (and thousands like her) the real face of Nazi Germany - that anyone could take pleasure in telling the British people who was going to be bombed - and when - was symptomatic of the evil that my dad, and millions of others were fighting.

 

Sean, I'd love to see the link to the whole book.

 

And no, I tend to think I wouldn't kick Peter Stahl's arse. Based on everything my parents taught me about those dark days, and their attitude towards the normal German citizen, I think I'd be more inclined to buy him a pint and let him tell me the stories of his own personal war.

 

TonInDublin

[leyTON]

What the f*** are you slevering at. This thread has gone way off topic.

 

But for some reason certain folk have changed it to their own liking.

no, it hasnt, sean said people would like to kick the guys arse, which started a healthy debate about how culpable soldiers where in wars and the iraq war was used as an example. but youv been in the army so the point is moot

its good to actually have you here to lower the tone and not really make a point and just swear, cos it kind of means i win:)