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Ravenscraig

Ravenscraig  

50 members have voted

  1. 1. If Crawford Rae insists on retaining ownership of Cappielow, would you like to see Morton move to Ravenscraig?

    • Yes
      3
    • No
      34
    • I would like a new purpose built stadium elsewhere in Greenock
      7
    • Only as an interim solution
      6


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Just now, cmdc said:

No, I'm saying that I the there are risks both ways and the devil will be in the detail.

So, hypothetically, you get involved with the takeover and you are ready to negotiate with Crawford. What would your preferred option be? Or what would you like to achieve in an ideal world. The devil in the detaiL can be sorted once we agree on the Vision and mission. 

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23 minutes ago, cmdc said:

No, I'm saying that I the there are risks both ways and the devil will be in the detail.

And right now the official line from both Morton and (unfortunately) MCT is all in the one direction - the risk of MCT's ownership has been pointed out and only the benefits of Morton's ownership has been pointed out. MCT say - correctly - that if they hit choppy waters in the future then the stadium could be under threat, and that if the stadium is part of GC then they say (correctly) it is in secure asset among many, and that if they are being charged a peppercorn rent then (correctly) they're only on the hook for maintenance and perhaps some capital improvements here and there. All of this is correct.

What is not being discussed anywhere except here - publically, anyway, perhaps MCT are talking about it behind the scenes - are the commensurate risks of this approach. Unless the lease is absolutely cast-iron, Hong Kong-for-99-years in its clarity then there are numerous ways the rug could be pulled out from under us. And while my knowledge of Scots law is pretty limited, I don't believe there to be an enforceable third-party mechanism of preventing GC from simply selling the stadium if they should wish. (That is, if GC have formal ownership, there is no legal mechanism by which MCT could legally prevent GC from disposing of their own asset any way in which they choose.)

So while the details are absolutely the key here, we are seeing the time-honored playbook of only the details that are beneficial to the Raes actually being considered. And it's damning that MCT's official Q&A is buying into it so readily. You'd think the fanbase would have learned after 20 years not to buy the jam tomorrow stories, but here we are.


The stadium was just resting in my account

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15 minutes ago, TRVMP said:

And right now the official line from both Morton and (unfortunately) MCT is all in the one direction - the risk of MCT's ownership has been pointed out and only the benefits of Morton's ownership has been pointed out. MCT say - correctly - that if they hit choppy waters in the future then the stadium could be under threat, and that if the stadium is part of GC then they say (correctly) it is in secure asset among many, and that if they are being charged a peppercorn rent then (correctly) they're only on the hook for maintenance and perhaps some capital improvements here and there. All of this is correct.

What is not being discussed anywhere except here - publically, anyway, perhaps MCT are talking about it behind the scenes - are the commensurate risks of this approach. Unless the lease is absolutely cast-iron, Hong Kong-for-99-years in its clarity then there are numerous ways the rug could be pulled out from under us. And while my knowledge of Scots law is pretty limited, I don't believe there to be an enforceable third-party mechanism of preventing GC from simply selling the stadium if they should wish. (That is, if GC have formal ownership, there is no legal mechanism by which MCT could legally prevent GC from disposing of their own asset any way in which they choose.)

So while the details are absolutely the key here, we are seeing the time-honored playbook of only the details that are beneficial to the Raes actually being considered. And it's damning that MCT's official Q&A is buying into it so readily. You'd think the fanbase would have learned after 20 years not to buy the jam tomorrow stories, but here we are.

I'm not a member of MCT or party to negotiations so can't say what's been said by them privately or publicly, but in general I agree - there are big risks both ways.

Edited by cmdc

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41 minutes ago, vikingTON said:

Presumably being landed with the £1 million a year maintenance costs that you genuinely thought the Raes were doing to keep Cappielow open. 

It's inexplicable that even time-honoured fence-sitters are making this case right now, when in the absence of ground ownership there is nothing else to prop up the club's balance sheet. If we were sitting on a diverse portfolio of assets then of course you can take a different approach: ownership is the only fundamental security that this football club has got though.

Well, no. The major risk in that case would be that the new owners are hit by a cash flow crisis that, especially in the current climate, could very quickly lead to administration/liquidation and the asset being lost as a result. On one view, which seems to be the view that GC/MCT have reached, the ground is more secure in GC's hands because it would be retained for Morton's use if the club comes out of administration or if a new club emerges from liquidation. The risk on the other side is, as Trvmp has said above, that GC have a change of position or hit upon their own problems. So the devil is in the detail either way as to how to mitigate those risks.

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A cash flow crisis will be an everyday fact of life for every owner of the club between now and the end of time/capitalism so long as the assets side of the balance sheet is hee-haw though. If the extent of our ambition as a club is to become the next Airdrie or Clyde 'successfully' bumbling around the seaside leagues without going bust at the end of every season then I'm out. 

I don't see any reason to believe that MCT have reached the view that the ground is safer in GC's hands at all. It was a takeover negotiation and it is in the interests of both sides to form a common front afterwards instead of trashing that outcome. The situation has now changed and the onus should be on MCT to get better terms before handing over any additional money to Crawford's 'we broke the budget again' hardship fund. If they can make a case for a different form of concession then I'm sure we'll all take a look at it.

Edited by vikingTON

The site is supposed to be a place for the extended 'family' of Morton supporters - having an affinity with people that you don't know, because you share a love of your local football club. It's not supposed to be about point scoring and showing how 'clever' or 'funny' you are, or just being downright rude and offensive to people you don't know, because you can get away with it. Unfortunately, it seems the classic case of people who have little standing/presence in real life, use this forum as a way of making themselves feel as if they are something. It's sad, and I've said that before..

 

So, having been on Morton forums for about 15 years I guess, I've had enough... well done t*ssers, another Morton supporter driven away. You can all feel happy at how 'clever' you are

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I think we all need to get by the intended legacy, hounding of CR and his family and second guessing who said what and it would be so much better if we did it another way. Left face the reality of where we are, how we got here is irrelevant, counter productive and just absoutely 100% exasperating. 

Accept, whether you agree with it or not, CR and the Rae family have called it a day and are no longer going to finance the running of a small town football team. In my opinion, I have no idea, why CR or for that matter any other entity would want to. I think someone called it a poison chalice recently and I would agree with that. Not since the days of Benny Rooney and Mike Jackson have we been anywhere near successful, on or off the park. 

Now we're scrambling, with some fans shouting the odds, that we should get the stadium for free. I would love that to happen, but being a realist, I think that is NEVER going to happen. Why would anyone give an assest away for free with such a significant value? Anyone who this this is a viable option or a lagacy intent, I'm sorry, but I think you are out of touch with reality. Even at a 50% discount on the value, where would the money come from? No bank is going to lend on the purchase and let's be honest, MCT will be doing everything they can just to meet the wage bill of the playing staff and management, never mind putting money in the bank.

I can recall the demonstrations for Wilson out, like they were yesterday. I for one was not in favor, not because I was happy the situation, no my fear was because of the old adage "Be Careful What You Wish For", well we have saw that a few times over and it has not bode well for anyone....

The reality of the situation is now out in front of us all. MCT is in negotiations to transfer/purchase the name and league association only. The need for the stadium and everything that associated with it, is the only real asset. It looks to me, that certain folks may have thought that this would be part of the transfer/purchase. Hard as this may be to take, the bottom line is the stadium and land will need to be purchased and lets face facts on that.

Sure it's been muted, that MCT can rent the stadium for a norminal fee. Having experience in this area, I need to make you aware, this will be after all of the obligatory expenses have been met. To name a few, business rates, maintenance, H&S, insurances, upkeep, utility expenses.....So yes, MCT will rent it for the cost of a fish supper, but everything else will need to be factored in. What GC is saying, we won't make any money off of you, but we are not preapared to loose any either.  

Ravenscraig or ground sharing should be out. Frankly, we would be living in the ICU and rotting away, all the while living a painful existence. However, the end WILL eventually come. I can recall going to a Meadowbank Thistle vs The Ton and it was the worst afternoon of my life....being at Ravenscraig would be worse IMO. 

I don't know the answer to any future questions or what lies ahead for us. I'm sure MCT will be doing their very best and we have 2 options;

1. Support MCT as our voice and hope the represenatatives do their very best for the fans. Put aside airing grievances in public and be the very best that we can be. MCT are doing what they're doing for the good of the club and all fans, so keep calm and trust the process.

2. Do nothing and wait and see.

 

 

 

 

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4 hours ago, vikingTON said:

Presumably being landed with the £1 million a year maintenance costs that you genuinely thought the Raes were doing to keep Cappielow open. 

It's inexplicable that even time-honoured fence-sitters are making this case right now, when in the absence of ground ownership there is nothing else to prop up the club's balance sheet. If we were sitting on a diverse portfolio of assets then of course you can take a different approach: ownership is the only fundamental security that this football club has got though.

I would love to know where the 1 million  pounds a year maintenance cost  comes from.

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We will accept fuck all. It’s that kind of attitude Rangers supporters had when they sat back and let their club die. Whatever “good intentions” were there in the first place do not matter when we’re hovering on the edge of bankruptcy thanks to two decades worth of decisions made by them. They do not get a pat on the back and a free pass, especially when trying to sneak out the door with our stadium, and are crippling us financially now because they don’t want to invest a single penny more.

Edited by TheGoon
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3 hours ago, bigB said:

I would love to know where the 1 million  pounds a year maintenance cost  comes from.

It’s a tongue in cheek reference to a mistake I made on here confusing overall costs with stadium costs. Think the running costs for the stadium alone is closer to £350k, or that was the suggested figure when it was discussed a few years ago.

Edited by cmdc

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4 minutes ago, bigB said:

I would love to know where the 1 million  pounds a year maintenance cost  comes from.

I believe cmdc quoted it in error but corrected the point in a later post. Sadly for cmdc the damage was done.

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31 minutes ago, cmdc said:

It’s a tough business

Indeed it is. This cesspit takes no prisoners. Alas for you the old adage of you shag one sheep holds true cmdc the sheep...

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13 hours ago, WhowouldbeaMortonfan said:

I think we all need to get by the intended legacy, hounding of CR and his family and second guessing who said what and it would be so much better if we did it another way. Left face the reality of where we are, how we got here is irrelevant, counter productive and just absoutely 100% exasperating. 

Accept, whether you agree with it or not, CR and the Rae family have called it a day and are no longer going to finance the running of a small town football team. In my opinion, I have no idea, why CR or for that matter any other entity would want to. I think someone called it a poison chalice recently and I would agree with that. Not since the days of Benny Rooney and Mike Jackson have we been anywhere near successful, on or off the park. 

Now we're scrambling, with some fans shouting the odds, that we should get the stadium for free. I would love that to happen, but being a realist, I think that is NEVER going to happen. Why would anyone give an assest away for free with such a significant value? Anyone who this this is a viable option or a lagacy intent, I'm sorry, but I think you are out of touch with reality. Even at a 50% discount on the value, where would the money come from? No bank is going to lend on the purchase and let's be honest, MCT will be doing everything they can just to meet the wage bill of the playing staff and management, never mind putting money in the bank.

I can recall the demonstrations for Wilson out, like they were yesterday. I for one was not in favor, not because I was happy the situation, no my fear was because of the old adage "Be Careful What You Wish For", well we have saw that a few times over and it has not bode well for anyone....

The reality of the situation is now out in front of us all. MCT is in negotiations to transfer/purchase the name and league association only. The need for the stadium and everything that associated with it, is the only real asset. It looks to me, that certain folks may have thought that this would be part of the transfer/purchase. Hard as this may be to take, the bottom line is the stadium and land will need to be purchased and lets face facts on that.

Sure it's been muted, that MCT can rent the stadium for a norminal fee. Having experience in this area, I need to make you aware, this will be after all of the obligatory expenses have been met. To name a few, business rates, maintenance, H&S, insurances, upkeep, utility expenses.....So yes, MCT will rent it for the cost of a fish supper, but everything else will need to be factored in. What GC is saying, we won't make any money off of you, but we are not preapared to loose any either.  

Ravenscraig or ground sharing should be out. Frankly, we would be living in the ICU and rotting away, all the while living a painful existence. However, the end WILL eventually come. I can recall going to a Meadowbank Thistle vs The Ton and it was the worst afternoon of my life....being at Ravenscraig would be worse IMO. 

I don't know the answer to any future questions or what lies ahead for us. I'm sure MCT will be doing their very best and we have 2 options;

1. Support MCT as our voice and hope the represenatatives do their very best for the fans. Put aside airing grievances in public and be the very best that we can be. MCT are doing what they're doing for the good of the club and all fans, so keep calm and trust the process.

2. Do nothing and wait and see.

 

 

 

 

Completely agree. 

 

The Rae's have plunged millions into the club over the last 2 decades - I'm sure far more than the £2.6 million debt on the balance sheet. Ok, it often could have been better spent, especially in Dougie's tenure, but in the more recent decade it has simply been keeping us afloat. 

 

If Crawford really didn't care about the club, Golden Casket could put the club into administration tomorrow. They will be the largest creditor and if no buyer was found who could cover a chunk of the debt, assets would be sold off and they'd get the vast majority of their money back with Morton FC going into liquidation or being saved in name only, with no assets or cash. 

 

If he didn't care, he could also lease the ground back at market value, rather than a peppercorn rent. So he is putting the future financial success of Morton above his own pocket. I'm guessing if someone was to come in & try and take control of the club, Rae could insist on a market value lease and leave MCT with a significant financial advantage. 

 

It would be nice for Rae to signal a future intention if he would be happy / keen for MCT to purchase the ground at some point and MCT to work towards that. I'm sure he would or else all he has is an asset that is of little benefit to him financially, other than to shore up the GC balance sheet. 

 

I also think there is a danger if MCT owned the club with a £3 million asset and only 600 or so people voting on appointments and major decisions that the organisation could be infiltrated by people who wanted to control that asset and sell it. 

 

On the Morton balance sheet, fixed assets are valued at £3.1 million. Assuming that includes the ground and car park - I actually think on the open market it could / would fetch that, maybe more. There are plenty of housing companies and land bankers who would take on the property, knowing at some point they will get planning permission for residential / retail. At that point the land would be worth anything from £5 million to £10 million, probably suitable for over 300 dwellings in terms of flats, terraces & semis like nearby developments along the A78 corridor. 

I've seen this at golf courses where companies will buy up land without planning permission and golf clubs or nearby farmers will get millions for relatively small parcels of land even with no immediate intention of building. 

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30 minutes ago, piehutt said:

Completely agree. 

 

The Rae's have plunged millions into the club over the last 2 decades - I'm sure far more than the £2.6 million debt on the balance sheet. Ok, it often could have been better spent, especially in Dougie's tenure, but in the more recent decade it has simply been keeping us afloat. 

And why is that? It ie entirely down to their own incompetence and failure to generate any sellable assets, any successful football teams or anything close to a commercial department outside of hospitality, for 20 years. Excuse me for not bowing to their amazing generosity when the money (which has completely stopped because they have supporters donations now) is used to plug gaps the Raes have created with their own sledgehammer. 

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52 minutes ago, TheGoon said:

And why is that? It ie entirely down to their own incompetence and failure to generate any sellable assets, any successful football teams or anything close to a commercial department outside of hospitality, for 20 years. Excuse me for not bowing to their amazing generosity when the money (which has completely stopped because they have supporters donations now) is used to plug gaps the Raes have created with their own sledgehammer. 

We are where we are. 

Plenty of people lining up to criticise Rae and I don't disagree that the money spent on the team (especially in the early days) was badly apportioned. 

But the alternative to the MCT deal not happening is Rae remaining as major shareholder.

Potentially there is an alternative buyer out there, but that is very unlikely. And that opens us up to another Hugh Scott type who is more interested in the property asset than running the football club. 

 

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4 hours ago, piehutt said:

We are where we are. 

Plenty of people lining up to criticise Rae and I don't disagree that the money spent on the team (especially in the early days) was badly apportioned. 

But the alternative to the MCT deal not happening is Rae remaining as major shareholder.

Potentially there is an alternative buyer out there, but that is very unlikely. And that opens us up to another Hugh Scott type who is more interested in the property asset than running the football club. 

 

Zzzzzz

 

3 hours ago, EanieMeany said:

That is exactly where we are. 

absolutely. Doesn’t take an AH-HA moment to realise this. Some people...

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11 hours ago, piehutt said:

Completely agree. 

 

The Rae's have plunged millions into the club over the last 2 decades - I'm sure far more than the £2.6 million debt on the balance sheet. Ok, it often could have been better spent, especially in Dougie's tenure, but in the more recent decade it has simply been keeping us afloat. 

 

If Crawford really didn't care about the club, Golden Casket could put the club into administration tomorrow. They will be the largest creditor and if no buyer was found who could cover a chunk of the debt, assets would be sold off and they'd get the vast majority of their money back with Morton FC going into liquidation or being saved in name only, with no assets or cash. 

 

If he didn't care, he could also lease the ground back at market value, rather than a peppercorn rent. So he is putting the future financial success of Morton above his own pocket. I'm guessing if someone was to come in & try and take control of the club, Rae could insist on a market value lease and leave MCT with a significant financial advantage. 

 

It would be nice for Rae to signal a future intention if he would be happy / keen for MCT to purchase the ground at some point and MCT to work towards that. I'm sure he would or else all he has is an asset that is of little benefit to him financially, other than to shore up the GC balance sheet. 

 

I also think there is a danger if MCT owned the club with a £3 million asset and only 600 or so people voting on appointments and major decisions that the organisation could be infiltrated by people who wanted to control that asset and sell it. 

 

On the Morton balance sheet, fixed assets are valued at £3.1 million. Assuming that includes the ground and car park - I actually think on the open market it could / would fetch that, maybe more. There are plenty of housing companies and land bankers who would take on the property, knowing at some point they will get planning permission for residential / retail. At that point the land would be worth anything from £5 million to £10 million, probably suitable for over 300 dwellings in terms of flats, terraces & semis like nearby developments along the A78 corridor. 

I've seen this at golf courses where companies will buy up land without planning permission and golf clubs or nearby farmers will get millions for relatively small parcels of land even with no immediate intention of building. 

I can assure you the vast majority if not all interested parties would not pay a significant sum upfront for development land that does not have planning permission for the proposed use especially when Cappielow would be a non-incoming producing asset. I accept there is potential for redevelopment but Cappielow is a compromised secondary site with significant costs before you would see any return. As for the timescale? Thankfully, MCT has a member on board with the experience and knowledge to advise on such matters.

If this was Twitter your post would be flagged as fake news,

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21 hours ago, piehutt said:

Completely agree. 

 

The Rae's have plunged millions into the club over the last 2 decades - I'm sure far more than the £2.6 million debt on the balance sheet. Ok, it often could have been better spent, especially in Dougie's tenure, but in the more recent decade it has simply been keeping us afloat. 

 

If Crawford really didn't care about the club, Golden Casket could put the club into administration tomorrow. They will be the largest creditor and if no buyer was found who could cover a chunk of the debt, assets would be sold off and they'd get the vast majority of their money back with Morton FC going into liquidation or being saved in name only, with no assets or cash. 

 

If he didn't care, he could also lease the ground back at market value, rather than a peppercorn rent. So he is putting the future financial success of Morton above his own pocket. I'm guessing if someone was to come in & try and take control of the club, Rae could insist on a market value lease and leave MCT with a significant financial advantage. 

 

It would be nice for Rae to signal a future intention if he would be happy / keen for MCT to purchase the ground at some point and MCT to work towards that. I'm sure he would or else all he has is an asset that is of little benefit to him financially, other than to shore up the GC balance sheet. 

 

I also think there is a danger if MCT owned the club with a £3 million asset and only 600 or so people voting on appointments and major decisions that the organisation could be infiltrated by people who wanted to control that asset and sell it. 

 

On the Morton balance sheet, fixed assets are valued at £3.1 million. Assuming that includes the ground and car park - I actually think on the open market it could / would fetch that, maybe more. There are plenty of housing companies and land bankers who would take on the property, knowing at some point they will get planning permission for residential / retail. At that point the land would be worth anything from £5 million to £10 million, probably suitable for over 300 dwellings in terms of flats, terraces & semis like nearby developments along the A78 corridor. 

I've seen this at golf courses where companies will buy up land without planning permission and golf clubs or nearby farmers will get millions for relatively small parcels of land even with no immediate intention of building. 

300 dwelling units on a 9 acre site is 33 per acre. That seems a bit on the high side.


"Any nation given the opportunity to regain its national sovereignty and which then rejects it is so far beneath contempt that it is hard to put words to it."

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14 minutes ago, Alibi said:

300 dwelling units on a 9 acre site is 33 per acre. That seems a bit on the high side.

Fair enough, if it's a bit less. Just some rough numbers showing how developers and speculators think. 

I'm just making the point that the land isn't worth nothing and it's not beyond the realms of possibility that it would / could be rezoned for development and that there are definitely people who would 'take a punt' on such a large site before it had been rezoned. 

However I'm sure this is not something Crawford wants to consider, but who knows what a more self-interested Golden Casket board would think. 

 

 

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On 12/13/2020 at 9:59 AM, 9 Strathblane Crescent said:

No, The car park and stadium are under Greenock Morton. There was a company set up called Greenock Morton FC (Property Ltd) which is still active but is dormant. Nothing to stop Crawford using that company to hive of the ground.  That  company was set up to take advantage of the Tall Ships as Dougie planned to use the car park for that purpose. There was a reason it was never used for that purpose which I can't remember but it might come back to me.

I just saw this - interesting as I thought I had read somewhere that the car park was deliberately hived off by the family as they believed it had development value. 

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5 hours ago, HamCam said:

I just saw this - interesting as I thought I had read somewhere that the car park was deliberately hived off by the family as they believed it had development value. 

Is this conversation happening too late perhaps?
The land information page has a note at the top saying they are processing an application that may change info on the title

Property summary for REN40182 - ScotLIS - Registers of Scotland (ros.gov.uk)

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33 minutes ago, ayrstorm said:

Is this conversation happening too late perhaps?
The land information page has a note at the top saying they are processing an application that may change info on the title

Property summary for REN40182 - ScotLIS - Registers of Scotland (ros.gov.uk)

The recent activity at Companies House suggests that Nick is getting the paperwork in order to do something with Cappielow.

GREENOCK MORTON FOOTBALL CLUB LIMITED - Filing history (free information from Companies House) (company-information.service.gov.uk)

All the heritable property of Cappielow is "released from charge", meaning there's no debt attached to it that would prevent it from being somehow sold or whatever.

Presumably - and it is a presumption, not a definite - this is with a view to spinning it out to Golden Casket or another third party and getting it off Morton's asset sheet, as was the plan announced by MCT.

It would be expected in such a scenario that the car park is also spirited away.

For safe-keeping, you understand. Not as part of an asset-stripping exercise. No way.


The stadium was just resting in my account

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