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Crawford Rae, Cappielow and MCT


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16 hours ago, HamCam said:

So good you said it twice. I agree it is potentially developable as is but what are the prospects of a Class 4,5 or 6 development up on 'Andy Morrisons' mound.

It was meant to be in stereo...

"Any nation given the opportunity to regain its national sovereignty and which then rejects it is so far beneath contempt that it is hard to put words to it."

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15 hours ago, dunning1874 said:

 

The people making the former argument, saying it's unreasonable to expect the stadium to be included in the transfer of ownership because of the potential income Golden Casket would be depriving themselves of, are therefore making the exact case for why their continued ownership of that land is unacceptable. Your argument supports the exact opposite point of the one you're trying to make.

 

I'm not making that argument. My point is that people are now very opposed to the MCT deal that doesn't include Cappielow staying on the Morton balance sheet. If that is the only deal on the table and people don't support it, it may well collapse.

None of us know the motivations for Rae retaining control of the asset. I don't believe it is financial (i.e. that he hopes to personally benefit from sale or rent in the future).

I agree with HamCam that Rae is potentially protecting Morton from failing under MCT and perhaps vultures circling to take control of the assets. 

It may be Golden Casket writing off £2.6m of debt would have taxation implications. My guess is that the £2.6m has left Golden Casket tax free as loans and if it was written off, the revenue would see it as Rae having effectively taken an income to fund his football club.

Over time as more capital is injected into Morton by MCT, this was being written off via share issues. 

I'm hopeful the terms of the lease will be clearer and will demonstrate that Rae has the best interests of the club in mind and there is nothing to worry about with the current proposal. 

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Why ought it remain "the only deal on the table" now, when GC have mismanaged the club to the point that they need a massive hauner to get the club through the season intact? They're the custodians of the club: if they want to keep their current deal with MCT intact then they should put their hands in their own pockets to cover their self-inflicted losses until they slink out the door. If they want additional investment from fans to cover the gap instead then they need to give something worthwhile in exchange for that. Which brings us nicely back to three fundamental questions that you have repeatedly failed to answer in all your bluster about the ground being flogged down the line:

1) What should be done to resolve the current financial shortfall for the season?

2) Who should cough up any additional money for this?

3) What should they receive in return for that capital investment?

The site is supposed to be a place for the extended 'family' of Morton supporters - having an affinity with people that you don't know, because you share a love of your local football club. It's not supposed to be about point scoring and showing how 'clever' or 'funny' you are, or just being downright rude and offensive to people you don't know, because you can get away with it. Unfortunately, it seems the classic case of people who have little standing/presence in real life, use this forum as a way of making themselves feel as if they are something. It's sad, and I've said that before..

 

So, having been on Morton forums for about 15 years I guess, I've had enough... well done t*ssers, another Morton supporter driven away. You can all feel happy at how 'clever' you are

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1 hour ago, piehutt said:

I'm not making that argument. My point is that people are now very opposed to the MCT deal that doesn't include Cappielow staying on the Morton balance sheet. If that is the only deal on the table and people don't support it, it may well collapse.

None of us know the motivations for Rae retaining control of the asset. I don't believe it is financial (i.e. that he hopes to personally benefit from sale or rent in the future).

I agree with HamCam that Rae is potentially protecting Morton from failing under MCT and perhaps vultures circling to take control of the assets. 

It may be Golden Casket writing off £2.6m of debt would have taxation implications. My guess is that the £2.6m has left Golden Casket tax free as loans and if it was written off, the revenue would see it as Rae having effectively taken an income to fund his football club.

Over time as more capital is injected into Morton by MCT, this was being written off via share issues. 

I'm hopeful the terms of the lease will be clearer and will demonstrate that Rae has the best interests of the club in mind and there is nothing to worry about with the current proposal. 

I don't think there is any doubt the majority of MCT members would prefer to own Cappielow but if that is not on the table or viable for now they have to consider what terms of occupancy can be agreed. I choose to believe Crawford, on behalf of the family, is seeking to reach an agreement that works for both parties but if MCT fail wants to ensure Cappielow is retained by the family. 

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1 hour ago, vikingTON said:

Why ought it remain "the only deal on the table" now, when GC have mismanaged the club to the point that they need a massive hauner to get the club through the season intact? They're the custodians of the club: if they want to keep their current deal with MCT intact then they should put their hands in their own pockets to cover their self-inflicted losses until they slink out the door. If they want additional investment from fans to cover the gap instead then they need to give something worthwhile in exchange for that. Which brings us nicely back to three fundamental questions that you have repeatedly failed to answer in all your bluster about the ground being flogged down the line:

1) What should be done to resolve the current financial shortfall for the season?

2) Who should cough up any additional money for this?

3) What should they receive in return for that capital investment?

Sadly, the Rae family do not share DDFR's passion for the club and in the circumstances they just want out without incurring any further losses. Much as I don't like it I understand their position, I am more disappointed that DDFR did not make the appropriate arrangements to protect the club, as promised. MCT find themselves in an almost impossible position but I believe they have to explore all options before putting a proposal to members on the way forward. Telling the family to do one may be instantly gratifying but ultimately self-defeating. 

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If they don't want any further losses before leaving then they should revise their existing deal with MCT to reward any additional investment that covers their self-created shortfall this season. Or if they don't want to change the terms then they can stump up the money to cover the season for themselves. 

I'm sure that such great of captains of industry will be aware that a something for nothing bailout is not a credible stance to take with an investment partner. Which is what the fans are now and is exactly why having MCT is a worthwhile exercise, because otherwise we'd still be in 'bring a friend' and buy a £14 calendar territory to get precisely zero leverage of the future of the club. 

The site is supposed to be a place for the extended 'family' of Morton supporters - having an affinity with people that you don't know, because you share a love of your local football club. It's not supposed to be about point scoring and showing how 'clever' or 'funny' you are, or just being downright rude and offensive to people you don't know, because you can get away with it. Unfortunately, it seems the classic case of people who have little standing/presence in real life, use this forum as a way of making themselves feel as if they are something. It's sad, and I've said that before..

 

So, having been on Morton forums for about 15 years I guess, I've had enough... well done t*ssers, another Morton supporter driven away. You can all feel happy at how 'clever' you are

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44 minutes ago, HamCam said:

Sadly, the Rae family do not share DDFR's passion for the club and in the circumstances they just want out without incurring any further losses. Much as I don't like it I understand their position, I am more disappointed that DDFR did not make the appropriate arrangements to protect the club, as promised. MCT find themselves in an almost impossible position but I believe they have to explore all options before putting a proposal to members on the way forward. Telling the family to do one may be instantly gratifying but ultimately self-defeating. 

 

There were certainly quotes from Dougie after the debt was into the millions that he would never call it in and a plan would be put in place to write it off. Obviously he never got round to it. 

Crawford was using the MCT donations to reduce the debt. I'm guessing this was in the form of a share issue to MCT & GC. 

I think it's no secret that Crawford is fed up being involved in Morton, especially considering he has been heavily involved throughout the Dougie reign and was defacto chairman for years prior to his father's death. 

However I do believe he wants MCT to succeed and see's that as preferable to other options he could use to extract himself from the club.

 

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3 minutes ago, piehutt said:

 

There were certainly quotes from Dougie after the debt was into the millions that he would never call it in and a plan would be put in place to write it off. Obviously he never got round to it. 

Such an unfortunate oversight for a lifelong businessman to make!

The site is supposed to be a place for the extended 'family' of Morton supporters - having an affinity with people that you don't know, because you share a love of your local football club. It's not supposed to be about point scoring and showing how 'clever' or 'funny' you are, or just being downright rude and offensive to people you don't know, because you can get away with it. Unfortunately, it seems the classic case of people who have little standing/presence in real life, use this forum as a way of making themselves feel as if they are something. It's sad, and I've said that before..

 

So, having been on Morton forums for about 15 years I guess, I've had enough... well done t*ssers, another Morton supporter driven away. You can all feel happy at how 'clever' you are

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14 hours ago, TheGoon said:

Countless pages of this and still no actual benefits of GC retaining the stadium can be found. Almost like there are none, and it is just as black and white as being a future earner for them.

From what was said at the Q&As, this is how MCT are partially mitigating their management of the club being a failure, i.e. so the stadium doesn't end up in the hands of administrators if their plans aren't sustainable. It's obviously arguable if it's any better in the hands of GC if something like that happens although there's more chance they could make it available to new club owners if it came to it. 

MCT said the terms of the contract are still being worked on so this might include a buy out clause meaning that, similar to the up to two season transition they've agreed, there might be a time based clause when they know how well their plans work (for example the 100k per year savings) where they can take full ownership of the stadium for an agreed fee. 

They obviously aren't going to give full details of negotiations at the moment but would expect to hear something soon. 

GC obviously have a vested interest and will be happy to have property on the balance sheet but my understanding is MCT feel what's happening is acceptable overall (although not perfect) based on risks around their longer term strategy. 

 

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Can't really put it down as the Rae's 'funding' the club for 20 years if what they were actually doing was loaning the club money and using the debt as an asset for their parent company in negotiations.

 

Peter Weatherson is the greatest player since Ritchie, and should be assigned 'chairman for life' 


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55 minutes ago, vikingTON said:

Such an unfortunate oversight for a lifelong businessman to make!

Don't really see the point you are making. 

The Rae's are successful businessmen and have a business with £22 million annual revenue. 

Just because playing Championship Manager with a lower league club hasn't led us into the Premier League, doesn't change the fact that they have built up and maintain a successful local business in the form of Golden Casket. 

How's your business empire going? 

Let us know when you make enough to buy a football club. 

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13 minutes ago, piehutt said:

Don't really see the point you are making. 

The Rae's are successful businessmen and have a business with £22 million annual revenue. 

Just because playing Championship Manager with a lower league club hasn't led us into the Premier League, doesn't change the fact that they have built up and maintain a successful local business in the form of Golden Casket. 

How's your business empire going? 

Let us know when you make enough to buy a football club. 

I think you’ve missed the point. I think VT (he may correct me) is actually acknowledging that Dougie did have a very successful business empire and made a lot of money. 
 

Do we therefore really believe that he just forgot to make any arrangements for a plan for the debt to be written off? When he has been so successful? Hard to buy that.

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2 hours ago, piehutt said:

I'm not making that argument. My point is that people are now very opposed to the MCT deal that doesn't include Cappielow staying on the Morton balance sheet. If that is the only deal on the table and people don't support it, it may well collapse.

None of us know the motivations for Rae retaining control of the asset. I don't believe it is financial (i.e. that he hopes to personally benefit from sale or rent in the future).

I agree with HamCam that Rae is potentially protecting Morton from failing under MCT and perhaps vultures circling to take control of the assets. 

It may be Golden Casket writing off £2.6m of debt would have taxation implications. My guess is that the £2.6m has left Golden Casket tax free as loans and if it was written off, the revenue would see it as Rae having effectively taken an income to fund his football club.

Over time as more capital is injected into Morton by MCT, this was being written off via share issues. 

I'm hopeful the terms of the lease will be clearer and will demonstrate that Rae has the best interests of the club in mind and there is nothing to worry about with the current proposal. 

Right, but the point here is surely that the situation has materially changed since that deal was agreed in principle.

That was based on MCT (ie the fans who make up their membership) continuing to make their financial contribution to the club on the same terms while Golden Casket are in charge.

Now, as a result of a failure to budget correctly on the part of the current board of the club, Golden Casket are saying the club faces an existential threat and to combat that threat they need more funding from the fanbase, over and above the £100K they're already contributing through MCT for the sole purpose of topping up the budget and the various other expenditures of fans on season tickets, streams, merchandise etc.

That being the case, it's entirely reasonable for fans to say that if the situation between now and the takeover has to materially change then the terms of the takeover should materially change. When fans are being asked to contribute even more funding in the period that Golden Casket still own the club just to allow the club to survive, and this is because Golden Casket failed to budget properly and are unwilling or unable to provide the extra funding to resolve their own self-inflicted mess, then the terms of the deal between Golden Casket and MCT should change because what Golden Casket are asking of MCT in the interim has changed. If you want more out of us now then we should get something in return for it. I don't just think that's a logical position to take, but the only reasonable one.

It's true that the only deal on the table is one between MCT and GC, but I'm saying that deal should change. I don't want it scrapped, I want it to be revised. Maybe when push comes to shove it won't be possible to revise it to the extent we want, but it's entirely right for fans to put pressure on for it to happen and it's important for MCT's credibility to take that pressure seriously and at least try to achieve that change.

If it doesn't change then you're right, walking away from MCT isn't going to make the success or survival of Morton any more likely, and I'm not going to do so. I'll not speak for anyone else, maybe some members will abandon it, maybe some compromise could be found that largely satisfies everyone without being exactly what they wanted such as a lease to buy agreement, maybe it'll genuinely just blow over and in the end there will be a watertight lease while years down the line it turns out GC's ownership of the stadium genuinely was planned with the best interests of the club in mind from everyone involved.

It's important to acknowledge though that no one who has considered the last week to be the final straw and now wants the stadium issue revisited to ensure Golden Casket have no ongoing relationship with the club is doing so out of vindictiveness or spite. It's all coming from the same place of genuine concern for the future of the club. People are taking these stances and getting angry about it precisely because we want what's best the club and don't trust that this arrangement protects Morton.

Brian Wake my Lord, Brian Wake

Brian Wake my Lord, Brian Wake

Brian Wake my Lord, Brian Wake

Oh Lord, Brian Wake

 

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32 minutes ago, dunning1874 said:

Right, but the point here is surely that the situation has materially changed since that deal was agreed in principle.

That was based on MCT (ie the fans who make up their membership) continuing to make their financial contribution to the club on the same terms while Golden Casket are in charge.

Now, as a result of a failure to budget correctly on the part of the current board of the club, Golden Casket are saying the club faces an existential threat and to combat that threat they need more funding from the fanbase, over and above the £100K they're already contributing through MCT for the sole purpose of topping up the budget and the various other expenditures of fans on season tickets, streams, merchandise etc.

That being the case, it's entirely reasonable for fans to say that if the situation between now and the takeover has to materially change then the terms of the takeover should materially change. When fans are being asked to contribute even more funding in the period that Golden Casket still own the club just to allow the club to survive, and this is because Golden Casket failed to budget properly and are unwilling or unable to provide the extra funding to resolve their own self-inflicted mess, then the terms of the deal between Golden Casket and MCT should change because what Golden Casket are asking of MCT in the interim has changed. If you want more out of us now then we should get something in return for it. I don't just think that's a logical position to take, but the only reasonable one.

It's true that the only deal on the table is one between MCT and GC, but I'm saying that deal should change. I don't want it scrapped, I want it to be revised. Maybe when push comes to shove it won't be possible to revise it to the extent we want, but it's entirely right for fans to put pressure on for it to happen and it's important for MCT's credibility to take that pressure seriously and at least try to achieve that change.

If it doesn't change then you're right, walking away from MCT isn't going to make the success or survival of Morton any more likely, and I'm not going to do so. I'll not speak for anyone else, maybe some members will abandon it, maybe some compromise could be found that largely satisfies everyone without being exactly what they wanted such as a lease to buy agreement, maybe it'll genuinely just blow over and in the end there will be a watertight lease while years down the line it turns out GC's ownership of the stadium genuinely was planned with the best interests of the club in mind from everyone involved.

It's important to acknowledge though that no one who has considered the last week to be the final straw and now wants the stadium issue revisited to ensure Golden Casket have no ongoing relationship with the club is doing so out of vindictiveness or spite. It's all coming from the same place of genuine concern for the future of the club. People are taking these stances and getting angry about it precisely because we want what's best the club and don't trust that this arrangement protects Morton.

With regards to the situation changing and the club being in a bigger hole financially. We are where we are. Budgets were made, mistakes were made with regards to how many would stream and the quality of the stream etc. and probably a hope that we'd have 15% capacity back at games by now (which would cover our home crowd). 

The club can either cut costs to get through the season (and obviously risk relegation) or MCT / the fans can fill the gaps to try and give us the best chance of taking over a Championship club. I've certainly purchased my 2 game package to help out. 

Agree that MCT have to, and I understand are, taking fans concerns about the stadium on board. I would hope that these concerns will be largely placated by the terms of the lease and (hopefully) some kind of realistic plan and timescales for the stadium to pass back into Morton ownership. 

I was initially sceptical that Rae / GC would want money from this deal at some point, but I now believe it's an accounting practice and that simply writing off £2.6 million of debt will leave GC with a huge tax bill. 

No doubt there will be some that will never be satisfied with whatever MCT agree. 687 MCT members suggests there's a fair number who attend regularly that haven't committed to MCT at present. Especially as a number of MCT members are out of towners who rarely go to games. 

So that's a meaningful market of fans to tap into and get on board. 

 

 

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45 minutes ago, StuartTon said:

I think you’ve missed the point. I think VT (he may correct me) is actually acknowledging that Dougie did have a very successful business empire and made a lot of money. 
 

Do we therefore really believe that he just forgot to make any arrangements for a plan for the debt to be written off? When he has been so successful? Hard to buy that.

Everyone thinks they have more time than they do. Dougie was still very active into his 80s. 

Who knows what the plan was or if they did enact some of it to prevent the debt getting even higher. 

 

 

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1 hour ago, StuartTon said:

I think you’ve missed the point. I think VT (he may correct me) is actually acknowledging that Dougie did have a very successful business empire and made a lot of money. 
 

Do we therefore really believe that he just forgot to make any arrangements for a plan for the debt to be written off? When he has been so successful? Hard to buy that.

Correct. The idea that Dougie didn't know exactly what he was doing in deciding how to manage his estates is laughable. 

The site is supposed to be a place for the extended 'family' of Morton supporters - having an affinity with people that you don't know, because you share a love of your local football club. It's not supposed to be about point scoring and showing how 'clever' or 'funny' you are, or just being downright rude and offensive to people you don't know, because you can get away with it. Unfortunately, it seems the classic case of people who have little standing/presence in real life, use this forum as a way of making themselves feel as if they are something. It's sad, and I've said that before..

 

So, having been on Morton forums for about 15 years I guess, I've had enough... well done t*ssers, another Morton supporter driven away. You can all feel happy at how 'clever' you are

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24 minutes ago, piehutt said:

With regards to the situation changing and the club being in a bigger hole financially. We are where we are. Budgets were made, mistakes were made with regards to how many would stream and the quality of the stream etc. and probably a hope that we'd have 15% capacity back at games by now (which would cover our home crowd). 

'Mistakes have been made': by Golden Casket as owners and operators of GMFC.

Who must pay for these mistakes: everyone else except Golden Casket!

It's just not going to happen on those gormless, simpering terms though. 

The site is supposed to be a place for the extended 'family' of Morton supporters - having an affinity with people that you don't know, because you share a love of your local football club. It's not supposed to be about point scoring and showing how 'clever' or 'funny' you are, or just being downright rude and offensive to people you don't know, because you can get away with it. Unfortunately, it seems the classic case of people who have little standing/presence in real life, use this forum as a way of making themselves feel as if they are something. It's sad, and I've said that before..

 

So, having been on Morton forums for about 15 years I guess, I've had enough... well done t*ssers, another Morton supporter driven away. You can all feel happy at how 'clever' you are

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23 hours ago, vikingTON said:

But they haven't actually done so and aren't even bothering to attend Dumbarton's board meetings. Sure sounds like they're thrilled with how that speculative property investment is working out for them!

"The situation of course is nothing like what is envisaged at Cappielow at some point in the future. Brabco are trying to move a viable club whereas when it comes to flog Cappielow the club is no longer in existence."

The club is in existence now champ and Cappielow is its home. The reality that any buyer of the land has to face then is therefore analogous to Dumbarton at Brabco - except that you seem to think that a hostile attempt to turf the club off the land would have a high chance of success when a bid with the club's backing (Dumbarton) has failed. Swing and a miss.

You'll first have to tell us what tragic alias you'll be operating under by then.

Just love it when this is what your reduced to.

The ultimate measure of a man is not where he stands in moments of comfort and convenience, but where he stands at times of challenge and controversy.
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