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Don't mind me saying so, I think you're either trolling here, or being pretty naive if you think that Sectarianism is 'nearly eradicated' in Scotland. It exists. It has done for centuries now and it's likely to exist for longer than our lifetime too.

Dare I say it, your comments are a bit similar to Alibi's comments saying that sectarianism isn't an issue down his neck of the woods when he is white, non-catholic, middle-class male and perhaps a bit isolated from such environments where such attitudes and mentalities prevail and even thrive. If he was a unemployed manual labourer desperately looking for work, a staffie-owning layabout from a sink estate, a regular in his local Rangers club or a parish priest he may have a totally different perspective.

It's similar to saying that Racism isn't an issue, but the Pakistani shopkeeper or Taxi driver who experiences it on a near daily basis may beg to differ; or similar to saying Homophobia is a thing of the past but an effeminate male who gets called a '****' or a 'faggot' on a regular basis may beg to differ.

I'm absolutely not trolling, and perhaps here thousands of miles away I'm completely insulated from it, but I lived for 27 years in the west of Scotland and in that time saw one (1) sectarian incident that didn't take place at a football ground, and it was so mild as to be comical. Maybe I got lucky? Perhaps there are people suffering from sectarian outrages on a daily basis but they're conspicuous by their absense in crime reports. What I do see are people who talk about how much of an issue it is 24/7 - people with a solution in search of a problem. Oddly enough their solution seems to almost always involve two things: funding for whatever body they're involved with, and punishing their enemies. Weird how that works!

 

So, no, feel free to shoot me down but I don't believe for a second that there are, in 2019 Scotland, people bravely going about their day-to-day lives weighed down by sectarian offenses. In the examples you have, perhaps sectarian *attitudes* are more prevalent*, but I don't believe this translates into anything more than that in the vast majority of cases.

 

*I've posted about this on here before but I read an article a few years ago about Orangism in Glasgow, and while the article was not sympathetic to the cause, it *was* sympathetic to the fact that this was one of the few "community" outlets an economically and devastated Glaawefian working class had to unite it. And yes, I understand the irony that they need something as divisive as Orangism to unite it (not to mention that I doubt any more than a minority is interested in it.) But I think it speaks to a broader point that a lot of the demonization of "sectarianism" is class-based and in fact aesthetic. Legislators don't like "sectarianism" coz it's spittle-flecked football supporters screaming at each other, which suggests disorder. Respectable types don't like Orangism because it looks fucking weird and menacing to see them marching about. Actual "offenses" under the law are a post-facto rationalization.

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I'm absolutely not trolling, and perhaps here thousands of miles away I'm completely insulated from it, but I lived for 27 years in the west of Scotland and in that time saw one (1) sectarian incident that didn't take place at a football ground, and it was so mild as to be comical. Maybe I got lucky? Perhaps there are people suffering from sectarian outrages on a daily basis but they're conspicuous by their absense in crime reports. What I do see are people who talk about how much of an issue it is 24/7 - people with a solution in search of a problem. Oddly enough their solution seems to almost always involve two things: funding for whatever body they're involved with, and punishing their enemies. Weird how that works!

 

 

 

 

I think that, like you say, perhaps you got lucky. Also, like Alibi maybe you are seeing things from the perspective of a white non-catholic middle-class male - a sort of younger Alibi if you like.

There will be people who live with sectarian abuse on a regular and even daily basis, whether it's schoolchildren being bullied to Catholic priests being assaulted in the street, abuse aimed at politicians who speak out against such incidents, to people getting abuse shouted at them (it works both ways) to the amount of Celtic supporters who have been murdered after old firm games over the years.

 

There is also anti-Irish racism coupled with sectarianism on many occasions, whenever that happens is it a race hate incident or is it a sectarian incident? Once again, that works both ways as there can be victims of these crimes who are of Ulster-Scots ethnicity as well as victims of Irish Heritage.

 

Anyway, you seem to be taking swipe at Nil by Mouth who are an anti-Sectarian charity founded by the bereaved partner of murdered teenager Mark Scott around 20 years ago. Why shouldn't they be looking to tackle sectarian issues in the arenas in which they manifest?

 

Incidentally, the person who murdered Mark Scott back in 1995 at Bridgeton Cross on the way home from a Celtic match was a young local thug called Jason Campbell. The UVF demanded he was moved to the Maze Prison and that he was granted 'Political Prisoner' status prior to the Good Friday agreement. This was a major stumbling block back then.

 

Anyway, I don't know if you seen or heard some of the stuff from this summer's marching season - not Football related - which lets you know that Sectarianism is still prevalent in Scotland today:

 

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-glasgow-west-44762725

 

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-glasgow-west-47061459

 

https://www.thescottishsun.co.uk/news/4464966/orange-walk-glasgow-priest-council-blind-bigotry/&ved=2ahUKEwjG3d6lsankAhUQLewKHYWHABkQFjAHegQICBAB&usg=AOvVaw2okZYMK2DJ2PG4YwLBwu6v&cshid=1567126619927

*insert signature here*

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I think that, like you say, perhaps you got lucky. Also, like Alibi maybe you are seeing things from the perspective of a white non-catholic middle-class male - a sort of younger Alibi if you like.

There will be people who live with sectarian abuse on a regular and even daily basis, whether it's schoolchildren being bullied to Catholic priests being assaulted in the street, abuse aimed at politicians who speak out against such incidents, to people getting abuse shouted at them (it works both ways) to the amount of Celtic supporters who have been murdered after old firm games over the years.

 

There is also anti-Irish racism coupled with sectarianism on many occasions, whenever that happens is it a race hate incident or is it a sectarian incident? Once again, that works both ways as there can be victims of these crimes who are of Ulster-Scots ethnicity as well as victims of Irish Heritage.

 

Anyway, you seem to be taking swipe at Nil by Mouth who are an anti-Sectarian charity founded by the bereaved partner of murdered teenager Mark Scott around 20 years ago. Why shouldn't they be looking to tackle sectarian issues in the arenas in which they manifest?

 

Incidentally, the person who murdered Mark Scott back in 1995 at Bridgeton Cross on the way home from a Celtic match was a young local thug called Jason Campbell. The UVF demanded he was moved to the Maze Prison and that he was granted 'Political Prisoner' status prior to the Good Friday agreement. This was a major stumbling block back then.

 

Anyway, I don't know if you seen or heard some of the stuff from this summer's marching season - not Football related - which lets you know that Sectarianism is still prevalent in Scotland today:

 

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-glasgow-west-44762725

 

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-glasgow-west-47061459

 

https://www.thescottishsun.co.uk/news/4464966/orange-walk-glasgow-priest-council-blind-bigotry/&ved=2ahUKEwjG3d6lsankAhUQLewKHYWHABkQFjAHegQICBAB&usg=AOvVaw2okZYMK2DJ2PG4YwLBwu6v&cshid=1567126619927

 

It's certainly possible - in fact, probable - that I was insulated from personal experience by my upbringing, where I lived, where I went to school and so on. But that still doesn't explain the relevant paucity of actual crimes. The ones you cite - murders, mostly - are of course terrible, but exceedingly, exceedingly rare. But again, the overwhelming majority of these "charges" either go nowhere, or are based on some drunken guy shouting something a little naughty. You can say these are distasteful things, sure, but I simply don't agree that they are worthy of the attention they're given, nor their criminal status, and I think it's largely down to distaste for the people doing it - as opposed to the actual "crimes" themselves - that we all put on our big frowny-faces about it.

 

I don't have any particular animus towards the NBM people trying to turn an awful murder into something productive. Most people would do the same. But that doesn't mean we have to pretend that this is some kind of regular thing that requires the amount of attention it's given (by the public at large, as opposed to the people whose beloved were murdered.) Really my complaint is less against them than against those who hung on their every word for the better part of 15 years even though it was abundantly clear they didn't know what they were talking about and they backed pretty much anything that would get anyone shopped for a "crime", regardless of how petty it was. (The exception, of course, being Partick Thistle fans, who can sing whatever they want, because it's against "both sides". Flawless logic! Piss off 100% of those involved instead of 50%. That will keep the peace.)

 

I've read those three links. All three pertain to the same incident. Someone was - rightly - charged with and admitted to spitting on a priest. Yeah, pretty horrible, but the guy was caught and was successfully charged* - why am I supposed to think this is symptomatic of some massive cultural disease that's not being taken seriously?
 
These crimes barely ever take place. When they do, they get front-page headlines in the ways that other, more pedestrian attacks do not. Short of banning civil displays altogether - which I know a lot of people agree with - it's hard to reckon what else society is supposed to do here. Oh, let's get some stadium closures and points deductions going, that ought to do it.
 
*in the interests of fairness it seems like there was another spitting incident this year and, while the links don't refer to a criminal charge - which they bloody well should - the person responsible seems to have been kicked out of whatever ludge they were involved with. 

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I'm absolutely not trolling, and perhaps here thousands of miles away I'm completely insulated from it, but I lived for 27 years in the west of Scotland and in that time saw one (1) sectarian incident that didn't take place at a football ground, and it was so mild as to be comical. Maybe I got lucky? Perhaps there are people suffering from sectarian outrages on a daily basis but they're conspicuous by their absense in crime reports. What I do see are people who talk about how much of an issue it is 24/7 - people with a solution in search of a problem. Oddly enough their solution seems to almost always involve two things: funding for whatever body they're involved with, and punishing their enemies. Weird how that works!

 

So, no, feel free to shoot me down but I don't believe for a second that there are, in 2019 Scotland, people bravely going about their day-to-day lives weighed down by sectarian offenses. In the examples you have, perhaps sectarian *attitudes* are more prevalent*, but I don't believe this translates into anything more than that in the vast majority of cases.

 

*I've posted about this on here before but I read an article a few years ago about Orangism in Glasgow, and while the article was not sympathetic to the cause, it *was* sympathetic to the fact that this was one of the few "community" outlets an economically and devastated Glaawefian working class had to unite it. And yes, I understand the irony that they need something as divisive as Orangism to unite it (not to mention that I doubt any more than a minority is interested in it.) But I think it speaks to a broader point that a lot of the demonization of "sectarianism" is class-based and in fact aesthetic. Legislators don't like "sectarianism" coz it's spittle-flecked football supporters screaming at each other, which suggests disorder. Respectable types don't like Orangism because it looks fucking weird and menacing to see them marching about. Actual "offenses" under the law are a post-facto rationalization.

Load of pish from someone who clearly had 27 sheltered years.

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"I didn't see it so it doesn't happen" is almost as stupid a line as somebody who doesn't live in Scotland trying to pass themself off as the ultimate authority on what is and isn't an issue in day-to-day life in the country. No amount of long-winded posts or pseudo-legal phrases disguises the fact that it's a load ill-informed, ignorant drivel.

AWMSC

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Saddest part of this thread is that we have managed nine pages based on an Old Firm topic, which has more replies than any other thread just now. They're both cheeks of the same arse, fuck them. 

Run Silent, Run Deep...

 

"Men who go to sea in Submarines are nothing but pirates in His Majesties uniform" Admiral of the Fleet Lord Jellicoe

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Saddest part of this thread is that we have managed nine pages based on an Old Firm topic, which has more replies than any other thread just now. They're both cheeks of the same arse, fuck them.

It’s not really an Old Firm topic though, it affects us all, as Friday night showed.

 

It would’ve a lot sadder if we had the attitude of the Partick fans by brushing the issue under the carpet.

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Saddest part of this thread is that we have managed nine pages based on an Old Firm topic, which has more replies than any other thread just now. They're both cheeks of the same arse, fuck them. 

 

Both Morton and Partick fans were heard singing sectarian songs on national TV less than a week ago. This is the perfect time to be discussing the issue of sectarianism and how it relates to Morton.

You address me by my proper title, you little bollocks! 


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I'm absolutely not trolling, and perhaps here thousands of miles away I'm completely insulated from it, but I lived for 27 years in the west of Scotland and in that time saw one (1) sectarian incident that didn't take place at a football ground, and it was so mild as to be comical. Maybe I got lucky? Perhaps there are people suffering from sectarian outrages on a daily basis but they're conspicuous by their absense in crime reports. What I do see are people who talk about how much of an issue it is 24/7 - people with a solution in search of a problem. Oddly enough their solution seems to almost always involve two things: funding for whatever body they're involved with, and punishing their enemies. Weird how that works!

 

So, no, feel free to shoot me down but I don't believe for a second that there are, in 2019 Scotland, people bravely going about their day-to-day lives weighed down by sectarian offenses. In the examples you have, perhaps sectarian *attitudes* are more prevalent*, but I don't believe this translates into anything more than that in the vast majority of cases.

 

*I've posted about this on here before but I read an article a few years ago about Orangism in Glasgow, and while the article was not sympathetic to the cause, it *was* sympathetic to the fact that this was one of the few "community" outlets an economically and devastated Glaawefian working class had to unite it. And yes, I understand the irony that they need something as divisive as Orangism to unite it (not to mention that I doubt any more than a minority is interested in it.) But I think it speaks to a broader point that a lot of the demonization of "sectarianism" is class-based and in fact aesthetic. Legislators don't like "sectarianism" coz it's spittle-flecked football supporters screaming at each other, which suggests disorder. Respectable types don't like Orangism because it looks fucking weird and menacing to see them marching about. Actual "offenses" under the law are a post-facto rationalization.

 

You're now well into the realms of anecdotal pish and half-baked assumptions. Your position on sectarianism doesn't add up, given that until relatively recently positive engagement with 'Orangism' was the quickest (or sometimes the only) way for someone to access jobs in the upper echelons of society. Legislators and 'respectable types' don't like Orangism? They were some of the most crucial gatekeepers in establishing and maintaining structural sectarianism for centuries in Scotland. 

 

You may not be trolling, but you're certainly being incredibly obtuse at best, and wildly inaccurate at worst. 

You address me by my proper title, you little bollocks! 


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Load of pish from someone who clearly had 27 sheltered years.

 

 

Great anecdote, very cool!

 

Either address the substance or pipe down.

 

 

 

"I didn't see it so it doesn't happen" is almost as stupid a line as somebody who doesn't live in Scotland trying to pass themself off as the ultimate authority on what is and isn't an issue in day-to-day life in the country. No amount of long-winded posts or pseudo-legal phrases disguises the fact that it's a load ill-informed, ignorant drivel.

You're mad because I demolished your hastily-googled "argument" from Bella Caledonia earlier. Either address that or pipe down.

 

You're now well into the realms of anecdotal pish and half-baked assumptions. Your position on sectarianism doesn't add up, given that until relatively recently positive engagement with 'Orangism' was the quickest (or sometimes the only) way for someone to access jobs in the upper echelons of society. Legislators and 'respectable types' don't like Orangism? They were some of the most crucial gatekeepers in establishing and maintaining structural sectarianism for centuries in Scotland.

 

This was literally decades ago, and in most cases almost a lifetime ago. Do you think that gatekeeping still happens, especially in the professions, much less what remains of heavy industry?

 

You may not be trolling, but you're certainly being incredibly obtuse at best, and wildly inaccurate at worst.

 

How am I being wildly inaccurate? Because someone got jailed for spitting on a priest over a year ago? Because gatekeeping *was* an issue when people were going about in Austin Rovers? This is what I was talking about earlier - these things simply don't happen anymore and it didn't take a huge amount of legal attention to make it so. What remains is the perception. I don't really blame people for still being vigilant about it but the idea that people are still being hamstrung by Scotland's Poor Wee Shame is far more anecdotal than anything I've said. It's a problem from the black and white era, but people refuse to move on because they want to punish their enemies.

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Partick Thistle have asked their fans to refrain from singing the song which references the Pope and Queen (or your, depending on what you've heard).

McGhee needs some support, there's no-one backing him up.
Hayes playing it forward, Bell being forced to do it all alone, now forward from Marr, here's Ritchie, still Andy Ritchie, look at the control...

That is a marvellous goal from Andy Ritchie. Twenty minutes on the clock and Morton's supporters come alive. A goal which epitomises the control, the arrogance, the cheek of Andy Ritchie.

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Good to see that SPFL match delegates follow the lead of this forum in calling out Partick’s sectarian shame.

The site is supposed to be a place for the extended 'family' of Morton supporters - having an affinity with people that you don't know, because you share a love of your local football club. It's not supposed to be about point scoring and showing how 'clever' or 'funny' you are, or just being downright rude and offensive to people you don't know, because you can get away with it. Unfortunately, it seems the classic case of people who have little standing/presence in real life, use this forum as a way of making themselves feel as if they are something. It's sad, and I've said that before..

 

So, having been on Morton forums for about 15 years I guess, I've had enough... well done t*ssers, another Morton supporter driven away. You can all feel happy at how 'clever' you are

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I for one am looking forward to Alibi braying against this latest, horrid injustice towards the witty and clever Possil tinks, once he completes that breach of the peace sentence for yesterday’s shameful scenes in a border bumpkin market town.

The site is supposed to be a place for the extended 'family' of Morton supporters - having an affinity with people that you don't know, because you share a love of your local football club. It's not supposed to be about point scoring and showing how 'clever' or 'funny' you are, or just being downright rude and offensive to people you don't know, because you can get away with it. Unfortunately, it seems the classic case of people who have little standing/presence in real life, use this forum as a way of making themselves feel as if they are something. It's sad, and I've said that before..

 

So, having been on Morton forums for about 15 years I guess, I've had enough... well done t*ssers, another Morton supporter driven away. You can all feel happy at how 'clever' you are

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