cmdc Posted January 7, 2020 Share Posted January 7, 2020 I thought we were running a break-even budget these days? It's even referenced in the BBC article. That’s the aspiration - whether it can be achieved (and at what cost on the park) is another thing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vikingTON Posted January 7, 2020 Share Posted January 7, 2020 Allegations were that a certain member of staff was following another member of staff around and taking photos of him while he visited his pals William, Paddy and Fred Rumours about fitting up staff for the sack aren’t helping either. If that's what you're referring to then it's not even remotely 'fitting someone up for the sack' at all - that would be a club employee going 'here's some money Andy, stick a fiver on both teams to score today for me' and then catching him in the act. Placing a member of staff under greater scrutiny because they're already suspected of misconduct in their job is something that senior management does every day at any credible organisation in the country. It only makes you wonder just how daft Bryan is if he either didn't grasp what was happening or refused to change behaviour that he and everyone else knew fine well went against the rules. Either way, the remarkable, Liverpool-esque, ill-deserved sense of injustice being kept peddled by Team Bryan should not be lumped in with the genuine issues at the football club right now. The site is supposed to be a place for the extended 'family' of Morton supporters - having an affinity with people that you don't know, because you share a love of your local football club. It's not supposed to be about point scoring and showing how 'clever' or 'funny' you are, or just being downright rude and offensive to people you don't know, because you can get away with it. Unfortunately, it seems the classic case of people who have little standing/presence in real life, use this forum as a way of making themselves feel as if they are something. It's sad, and I've said that before.. So, having been on Morton forums for about 15 years I guess, I've had enough... well done t*ssers, another Morton supporter driven away. You can all feel happy at how 'clever' you are Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vikingTON Posted January 7, 2020 Share Posted January 7, 2020 I actually think MCT money is wrongly directed in two directions. One at the debt and one at the first team. For me MCT money should be used in ways that can generate further income. If only they could consult a certain feasibility study about the income generating potential of Cappielow, that both the flunkies of previous, failed organisations as well as Hawke chose to sit on rather than placing in the public domain. The debt can be negotiated - costs can’t - The question of paying back their massive pile of IOUs represents a trump card for GC in any negotiation that's not to their liking: we shouldn't allow them to hold that leverage for one second longer than MCT - or an external backer - can get it off the table for good. It's truly laughable to see you keep peddling the 'that £2 million debt pile doesn't really matter to anyone' line, when the scale of the current MCT uptake is directly linked to the amount of IOUs Crawford is willing to rip up under the agreement's terms. The site is supposed to be a place for the extended 'family' of Morton supporters - having an affinity with people that you don't know, because you share a love of your local football club. It's not supposed to be about point scoring and showing how 'clever' or 'funny' you are, or just being downright rude and offensive to people you don't know, because you can get away with it. Unfortunately, it seems the classic case of people who have little standing/presence in real life, use this forum as a way of making themselves feel as if they are something. It's sad, and I've said that before.. So, having been on Morton forums for about 15 years I guess, I've had enough... well done t*ssers, another Morton supporter driven away. You can all feel happy at how 'clever' you are Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cmdc Posted January 7, 2020 Share Posted January 7, 2020 If only they could consult a certain feasibility study about the income generating potential of Cappielow, that both the flunkies of previous, failed organisations as well as Hawke chose to sit on rather than placing in the public domain. The question of paying back their massive pile of IOUs represents a trump card for GC in any negotiation that's not to their liking: we shouldn't allow them to hold that leverage for one second longer than MCT - or an external backer - can get it off the table for good. It's truly laughable to see you keep peddling the 'that £2 million debt pile doesn't really matter to anyone' line, when the scale of the current MCT uptake is directly linked to the amount of IOUs Crawford is willing to rip up under the agreement's terms. Of course the debt matters - it obviously matters - but it can be made the subject of negotiation. However, even if the debt was wiped out the costs would still be there, can't be negotiated away, and in my opinion are the more significant hurdle where it comes to moving the club on. That all depends on how hardline GC are about recovering that debt, of course - and I agree that the messages of debt reduction and squad strengthening are more likely to galvanise support. It's not an easy balance. I worry though about what happens when people look behind the debt at what it would take - and what resources we have - to finance a competitive FT side. ETA: in summary - my worry is that MCT money could quickly be squandered on wages and reduce the debt only to leave the actual running of the club no more attractive to potential buyers. That’s not a criticism of MCT as such, just my opinion. To my knowledge there hasn't been a feasibility study looking at the income generating potential of Cappielow. The feasability study that you refer to was a study into various options for growing the Community Trust, one of which concerned development at Cappielow to allow for a community facility e.g. within a new stand. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bob_the_builder Posted January 7, 2020 Share Posted January 7, 2020 Not sure about those rumours - haven’t heard anything along those lines - but I think it’s the other way around. FT football outside the top flight seems to require owners to take on the risk of circa £250k (or much higher) annual losses (even Dunfermline, who roughly break even rely heavily on donations of about that amount to do so). The debt is only a problem if GC (not Crawford - it’s not him but GC who own the club and who would be seeking reimbursement) insist on it being paid in full (or a sizeable amount). But even if GC wipes out or substantially reduces the debt - and someone who is willing and able to take the costs off GC possibly won’t find it difficult to negotiate the debt down or negotiate it away - potential purchasers looking not just at our finances across but at finances in the Championship/League 1 more generally would have to be pretty bold and pretty committed to take on those sorts of losses with only very limited opportunities to reduce them. I actually think MCT money is wrongly directed in two directions. One at the debt and one at the first team. For me MCT money should be used in ways that can generate further income. The debt can be negotiated - costs can’t - and I have a feeling that the donation to wages can encourage waste/inefficient spending. That’s just my initial opinion - I’m sure plenty would disagree and that MCT would have thought about how it’s money can best be used. Thinking back it may have actually been Douglas that was refusing to budge on the debt with regards to selling the club, not Crawford. We're going to have to agree to disagree on this one. Owners may be required to take on a risk of £250K+ but that doesn't mean they have to run that debt up! Supposedly we're breaking even just now and sponsorship and prize money have both increased in the last few years so it's not like all these clubs have been forced to tighten their belts against their will. An owner who knows how to run a football club properly, or appoint a CEO who does, could make a club like Morton a very well run, profitable business. Clubs like Morton are financially suffering due to the mistakes by those running the club so it grates on me when I see those people trying to force the hands and wallets of their fans to help correct those mistakes. I do agree with you on the MCT money. I don't know much about the scheme but I hope that it is 100% for team funding and that this is clearly accountable, I'd be furious if GC was in anyway easing their past debts with this cash. Back to the twitter crap, its infuriating that over the last 5 years or so Morton have made great strides to become a community club and now we have a CEO and owner who seem to want to burn bridges with the fans for reasons like having the audacity to criticize the managers team selection. The same fans who are willing to put money into the MCT every month on top of season tickets/gate prices and have more than enough right to criticize. When those guy eventually leave, the club is going to be left with the stigma of being an institution that treats its fans with disdain. How do we get them back through the turnstiles when the message they got before was "pay us, stand there, shut up and clap like performing seals regardless of whats on show". Edit to actually complete what i was saying here today, gone to hell Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vikingTON Posted January 7, 2020 Share Posted January 7, 2020 Of course the debt matters - it obviously matters - but it can be made the subject of negotiation. However, even if the debt was wiped out the costs would still be there, can't be negotiated away, and in my opinion are the more significant hurdle where it comes to moving the club on. That all depends on how hardline GC are about recovering that debt, of course - and I agree that the messages of debt reduction and squad strengthening are more likely to galvanise support. It's not an easy balance. I worry though about what happens when people look behind the debt at what it would take - and what resources we have - to finance a competitive FT side. By clearing the debt you remove GC's decisive bargaining chip and can then move onto to prising them out the door for good in future negotiations. Crawford has been in and around the club for the best part of two decades so it really isn't incumbent on outsiders like MCT to identify - and fund - for him some new money-spinning wheeze. That is an issue of secondary importance to be dealt with once the incumbent regime is no longer around to make their trademark mess of any new project. ETA: in summary - my worry is that MCT money could quickly be squandered on wages and reduce the debt only to leave the actual running of the club no more attractive to potential buyers. That’s not a criticism of MCT as such, just my opinion. A worry that is based on the Rae-era premise that the club needs some benevolent potential buyer with near total control of the club to continue as a serious entity; I don't share that view and it seems that MCT doesn't either given its now stated intent to explore a community ownership model. I wouldn't want a fans group to exercise decision making power on a daily basis, but rather a system in which supporters invest to secure shares, sell them to minor investors and then recycle that money back into the club would be well suited to deal with the challenges that the club faces. To my knowledge there hasn't been a feasibility study looking at the income generating potential of Cappielow. The feasability study that you refer to was a study into various options for growing the Community Trust, one of which concerned development at Cappielow to allow for a community facility e.g. within a new stand. Well you should have spent that time and resources focusing on a topic with obvious value to the future of a debt-strangled mess of a football club then, rather than on some irrelevant token side-projects that will be wrapped up with the club if things go down the swanny. The site is supposed to be a place for the extended 'family' of Morton supporters - having an affinity with people that you don't know, because you share a love of your local football club. It's not supposed to be about point scoring and showing how 'clever' or 'funny' you are, or just being downright rude and offensive to people you don't know, because you can get away with it. Unfortunately, it seems the classic case of people who have little standing/presence in real life, use this forum as a way of making themselves feel as if they are something. It's sad, and I've said that before.. So, having been on Morton forums for about 15 years I guess, I've had enough... well done t*ssers, another Morton supporter driven away. You can all feel happy at how 'clever' you are Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cmdc Posted January 7, 2020 Share Posted January 7, 2020 Well you should have spent that time and resources focusing on a topic with obvious value to the future of a debt-strangled mess of a football club then, rather than on some irrelevant token side-projects that will be wrapped up with the club if things go down the swanny. Nope. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vikingTON Posted January 7, 2020 Share Posted January 7, 2020 Nope. What, will they soldier on misusing the name of Greenock Morton (d. like Rangers) and wait on some phoenix club to slither into the Lowland League instead? The site is supposed to be a place for the extended 'family' of Morton supporters - having an affinity with people that you don't know, because you share a love of your local football club. It's not supposed to be about point scoring and showing how 'clever' or 'funny' you are, or just being downright rude and offensive to people you don't know, because you can get away with it. Unfortunately, it seems the classic case of people who have little standing/presence in real life, use this forum as a way of making themselves feel as if they are something. It's sad, and I've said that before.. So, having been on Morton forums for about 15 years I guess, I've had enough... well done t*ssers, another Morton supporter driven away. You can all feel happy at how 'clever' you are Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TRVMP Posted January 7, 2020 Share Posted January 7, 2020 I’m in total agreement with the principle that clubs like Morton should live within their means, but a debt free community owned model probably equates to part time or a heavy reliance on youth. An ambition to be the best part time team in the country probably lands us around where we are currently anyway. Making the jump to the premier league (even an expanded top tier) without access to speculative investment (debt) is probably a non-starter. Assume the core support will reduce over time. Our future will most likely look more like Alloa or Airdrie, than St Johnstone or St Mirren. Or, we torch all the pitches and office spaces in the area, push it all to Cappielow and hope the primary schools of Inverclyde are sitting on generational talent. Even with the increased prize money on offer, this is a genuine concern. Making the numbers add up every year is a daunting prospect and one that, without a deep-pocketed backer (or consortium of backers), can end badly. Ebbsfleet United are in the midst of learning that right now. But what's clear now is that the autocrat model is also fragile. All it takes is for the backer to withdraw his/their support and the whole thing comes crashing down, as is currently taking place. The community model, on the other hand, at least in theory spreads the risk out and gives many opportunities for new fundraising. There is no silver bullet here but I commend MCT for at least exploring the option of community ownership, given that the frailties of the Rae regime are now apparent to even the happiest of clappers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TRVMP Posted January 7, 2020 Share Posted January 7, 2020 An owner who knows how to run a football club properly, or appoint a CEO who does, could make a club like Morton a very well run, profitable business. Clubs like Morton are financially suffering due to the mistakes by those running the club so it grates on me when I see those people trying to force the hands and wallets of their fans to help correct those mistakes. 1. Even the well-run clubs at our level will find it hard to make money each and every year on an ongoing basis. Football isn't like other businesses in a lot of ways - losses are part of the model because at some level there's always financial doping taking place, so others have to spend above the "correct" level as well. I do agree that Morton can make a modest profit in the current environment while remaining half-decent in the Championship, but that could very easily change. 2. You are spot on with the second part. That is exactly the wheeze that's taking place. And that's why I support MCT trying to remove the failed Rae regime from the equation entirely. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
autolatre Posted January 7, 2020 Share Posted January 7, 2020 With the right investment a club like us could be a stable lower end premiership club even without expansion. The great cup runs we've had over the last few seasons should have been a great opportunity to get more people interested in Morton. I still stand by my previous points that the media/communications team (person) needs to improve dramatically. A lot of lower end Junior clubs have better media output (specifically match highlights) than our club. We should at least be able to have proper, good quality highlights of every game. Even the picture quality of most highlights isn't good and almost reminds me of a dad recording their sons youth fixture. Surely we also need to explore the benefits of having a subscription based morton tv? We must be one of the only full time clubs without this now although maybe we aren't big enough. There must be some local media companies that we could outsource this too? Companies like Gryffe Studios comes to mind. The website is constantly out of date which suggests to me there must be a lot of manual updating required of the website which is ridiculous in 2020. There are hundreds of free APIs that the club could be using to have the fixtures and league tables update automatically - you could even have real time scores. Are one of our directors not responsible for the IT systems? Surely this should be flagged by this person. Is it also about time we explore the feasibility of Smiths doing the merchandise and if there's any other companies that can do it? I assume Smiths is the cheapest option as frankly it's a bit of a crappy store and their website is worse than ours. To put it in perspective - google warns you shouldn't buy anything from their website as it's not secure. Edit: The website is built in Wordpress. Google "Wordpress football APIs" and you'll see the hundreds of different ways clubs could automate this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deego Posted January 7, 2020 Share Posted January 7, 2020 With the right investment a club like us could be a stable lower end premiership club even without expansion. The great cup runs we've had over the last few seasons should have been a great opportunity to get more people interested in Morton. I still stand by my previous points that the media/communications team (person) needs to improve dramatically. A lot of lower end Junior clubs have better media output (specifically match highlights) than our club. We should at least be able to have proper, good quality highlights of every game. Even the picture quality of most highlights isn't good and almost reminds me of a dad recording their sons youth fixture. Surely we also need to explore the benefits of having a subscription based morton tv? We must be one of the only full time clubs without this now although maybe we aren't big enough. There must be some local media companies that we could outsource this too? Companies like Gryffe Studios comes to mind. The website is constantly out of date which suggests to me there must be a lot of manual updating required of the website which is ridiculous in 2020. There are hundreds of free APIs that the club could be using to have the fixtures and league tables update automatically - you could even have real time scores. Are one of our directors not responsible for the IT systems? Surely this should be flagged by this person. Is it also about time we explore the feasibility of Smiths doing the merchandise and if there's any other companies that can do it? I assume Smiths is the cheapest option as frankly it's a bit of a crappy store and their website is worse than ours. To put it in perspective - google warns you shouldn't buy anything from their website as it's not secure. Edit: The website is built in Wordpress. Google "Wordpress football APIs" and you'll see the hundreds of different ways clubs could automate this. And who implements the APIs? Also you may get hundreds of results, as I've just seen, but I'm keen to see how many are actually free and fit for purpose. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TRVMP Posted January 7, 2020 Share Posted January 7, 2020 Is it also about time we explore the feasibility of Smiths doing the merchandise and if there's any other companies that can do it? I assume Smiths is the cheapest option as frankly it's a bit of a crappy store and their website is worse than ours. To put it in perspective - google warns you shouldn't buy anything from their website as it's not secure. While I may be the only outlander to have visited their online store in months, I was unable to order a Christmas present for someone back home as it wouldn't accept my US credit card. Which wouldn't be a huge deal, but they don't take PayPal or anything else. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
autolatre Posted January 7, 2020 Share Posted January 7, 2020 And who implements the APIs? Also you may get hundreds of results, as I've just seen, but I'm keen to see how many are actually free and fit for purpose. Surely we have an on-going maintenance agreement with BCS? It wouldn't cost that much to have the original company working on it (and even less if they get a contractor for less than a days work). We appear to be one of their flagship reference clients - I'm sure there's a good discount to be had on top of that to continue being a reference client. It's not a re-design either - you keep the original design the data source just changes. You're right though - free should be italics. We would need a proper analysis of how many hits the page actually receives before being able to decide between free or premium. Probably thinking about it a bit much however you don't need to call it every request - you can have it update in the background and people browsing the site would have near real time (if they excluded real time updates and showed say score at HT and final result and league table would update at the same time). While I may be the only outlander to have visited their online store in months, I was unable to order a Christmas present for someone back home as it wouldn't accept my US credit card. Which wouldn't be a huge deal, but they don't take PayPal or anything else. How much revenue has the club potentially lost here at this point in time and going forward when their main supplier of kits through their online store can't process a US credit card? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deego Posted January 7, 2020 Share Posted January 7, 2020 Surely we have an on-going maintenance agreement with BCS? It wouldn't cost that much to have the original company working on it (and even less if they get a contractor for less than a days work). We appear to be one of their flagship reference clients - I'm sure there's a good discount to be had on top of that to continue being a reference client. It's not a re-design either - you keep the original design the data source just changes. You're right though - free should be italics. We would need a proper analysis of how many hits the page actually receives before being able to decide between free or premium. Probably thinking about it a bit much however you don't need to call it every request - you can have it update in the background and people browsing the site would have near real time (if they excluded real time updates and showed say score at HT and final result and league table would update at the same time). I'm not sure of their agreement these days but don't imagine it's something they'd get done as part of a maintenance agreement. There's certainly no chance of a discount because BCS use them as a portfolio piece. I'm not convinced it's less than a day's work to do it, or do it properly at least. The designs might stay the same but the PHP-written front-end files would need ripped apart to handle the JS data. Not to mention the now-redundant admin functionality that you'd imagine would need ripped out. That is also assuming these WordPress API solutions allow for that level of customisation - it would really need to be raw data only that gets passed through. A lot of WordPress plugins come with their own setup of front-end code that would need to be wrestled with (I assume you meant a plugin as you mentioned the CMS specifically). A bulk of the work would be researching potential solutions and ensuring their suitability. I'd be surprised if you could get that for under a grand. Probably not worth it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cmdc Posted January 7, 2020 Share Posted January 7, 2020 I'm not sure of their agreement these days but don't imagine it's something they'd get done as part of a maintenance agreement. There's certainly no chance of a discount because BCS use them as a portfolio piece. I'm not convinced it's less than a day's work to do it, or do it properly at least. The designs might stay the same but the PHP-written front-end files would need ripped apart to handle the JS data. Not to mention the now-redundant admin functionality that you'd imagine would need ripped out. That is also assuming these WordPress API solutions allow for that level of customisation - it would really need to be raw data only that gets passed through. A lot of WordPress plugins come with their own setup of front-end code that would need to be wrestled with (I assume you meant a plugin as you mentioned the CMS specifically). A bulk of the work would be researching potential solutions and ensuring their suitability. I'd be surprised if you could get that for under a grand. Probably not worth it. Nerd Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EanieMeany Posted January 7, 2020 Share Posted January 7, 2020 "If MCT and all of its members can demonstrate a cogent plan and the ability to deliver it...", says Crawford Rae. Lol. AWMSC Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jamie_M Posted January 7, 2020 Share Posted January 7, 2020 "If MCT and all of its members can demonstrate a cogent plan and the ability to deliver it...", says Crawford Rae. Lol. He obviously remembers the first incarnation of their website. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TRVMP Posted January 7, 2020 Share Posted January 7, 2020 How much revenue has the club potentially lost here at this point in time and going forward when their main supplier of kits through their online store can't process a US credit card? In fairness, about a tenner. I don't really mind if the club focuses locally, as that's where 95%-ish of the revenue for small clubs will come from. But it's just another little example of things being a bit shoddily implemented. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EanieMeany Posted January 7, 2020 Share Posted January 7, 2020 He obviously remembers the first incarnation of their website. In fairness, the note of scepticism (intentional or not) is well-founded, but it's some brass-neck for him to be commenting on the credibility of anybody else's plans. There's also a load of bluster about him and his dad's "legacy". It's not something I'd be keen to draw attention to, if I was him. AWMSC Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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