The Conference League and B Teams

[Cet Homme Charmant]

https://www.gmfc.net/scottish-conference-league-proposal/

 

[The Bewilderedbeast]

23 minutes ago, Cet Homme Charmant said:

https://www.gmfc.net/scottish-conference-league-proposal/

 

Splendid, well done (again) Morton 

[Hej]

Seems like this whole back of a fag packet plan is going to fail now. All thanks to fans of diddy teams up and down the country voicing their displeasure with it. Feels good to know we've still got the power to stop any sham plans the two bigots try to railroad through, and don't ever let them forget it.

[vikingTON]

1 hour ago, Hej said:

Seems like this whole back of a fag packet plan is going to fail now. All thanks to fans of diddy teams up and down the country voicing their displeasure with it. Feels good to know we've still got the power to stop any sham plans the two bigots try to railroad through, and don't ever let them forget it.

A few total permadiddy outfits like 'Cowdenbeath' in the non-leagues swallowed the bait though and should be punished with extinction.

[TRVMP]

The important thing is that the vote is correct, but I don't think the statement really makes sense. Just because players have been on loan at Morton doesn't mean that they, their parent clubs, or the national team really saw much benefit. You could make a case for Barrie McKay's career being set back by his loan moves (albeit that's down to his terrible attitude) as much as anything else.

Still, nitpicking a bit - the important thing is that the current proposal has another club voting against it.

[dunning1874]

10 hours ago, TRVMP said:

The important thing is that the vote is correct, but I don't think the statement really makes sense. Just because players have been on loan at Morton doesn't mean that they, their parent clubs, or the national team really saw much benefit. You could make a case for Barrie McKay's career being set back by his loan moves (albeit that's down to his terrible attitude) as much as anything else.

Still, nitpicking a bit - the important thing is that the current proposal has another club voting against it.

I think it's important to see clubs hammering home the point that, while sporting integrity is the most significant issue with this specific proposal, the loan system does work and will always be better for player development than any possible version of B Teams. While the Conference League is now on track for a defeat at the AGM, it's inevitable B Teams will rear their head again in a different proposal and clubs having a track record of talking up the loan system will be useful for shooting that down when the goalposts are inevitably moved and the SFA/SPFL argue the only issue here was sporting integrity as opposed to that simply being one of many issues.

I agree the examples given could have been better - Ross Doohan being mentioned when he literally didn't play a minute for us is hilarious - but the point is a good one. Jamie Lindsay is the archetypal example of a player who has benefitted from the strengths of the loan system between his time with Dumbarton, us and Ross County, playing alongside as well as against older players, working with several managers and learning from the experience of different environments and different styles of play to become a far better player than he would ever have been in a Celtic B team at any level.

For all that the others aren't nearly as great examples as him, launching in a list of players we had on loan from Rangers and Celtic is probably a very deliberate point, particularly when one of them is now at Hearts and two of them have Scotland caps.

[The Bewilderedbeast]

Common sense prevails.

 

 

[dunning1874]

Figured this was a better place to discuss it than the Challenge Cup thread. As said there, Rangers B v Alloa will be at Cappielow.

I'm actually really unhappy about this. If Rangers come waving a wad of money around asking to rent Cappielow for their youth teams to play games here, then that's one thing and I get the club are constantly looking for ways to bring money in. Some people might have an issue with allowing them any presence in Inverclyde at all and I see that argument, but I can equally see why the board would go for that: it's exactly the arrangement we had with Celtic years ago when we weren't facing the same financial challenges.

Agreeing to this when it's not youth team fixtures alone but their B Team taking part in first team competitions is an entirely different matter and completely unacceptable. To allow them to use Cappielow for this game is also giving explicit approval of B Teams being in the tournament in the first place, when every club with the best interests of Scottish football at heart - and especially a fan owned one - should be pushing for their removal from the competition. Some top flight clubs have stopped entering B teams into the tournament and there's an opportunity to push for their removal, while the inevitable return of another B team proposal next summer despite the humiliation the SFA endured with the Conference League being pulled before even reaching a vote means we can't be complacent.

There's a principle here that simply shouldn't be broken, and now whenever a proposal does come up again there'll be fingers pointed at Morton fans when we speak up against it, just as there were with Dumbarton and Airdrie, noting the hypocrisy that our club were happy to take 30 pieces of silver from B Teams in the first place.

[Alibi]

Do we actually make anything from this arrangement?  I don't mean the amount they would pay, but the net profit after the costs involved are deducted - floodlights, utilities costs, any stewarding costs, etc. etc.  I'd hazard a guess that the profit from hiring out Cappielow for this game would probably be very small.  I could see the logic if we were actually making a significant sum, but I suspect it won't be worth the effort financially.  That's before you consider the moral arguments as outlined by Toby above.

We haven't had to play any of these B teams so far, but eventually we might get drawn against one of them.  If that happens, would we refuse to play them and just forfeit the match?  Unlikely I think as we'd be cutting off our nose to spite our face.  In practice the rules currently allow them to take part and we have to abide by the rules.

[Toby]

11 minutes ago, Alibi said:

Do we actually make anything from this arrangement?  I don't mean the amount they would pay, but the net profit after the costs involved are deducted - floodlights, utilities costs, any stewarding costs, etc. etc.  I'd hazard a guess that the profit from hiring out Cappielow for this game would probably be very small.  I could see the logic if we were actually making a significant sum, but I suspect it won't be worth the effort financially.  That's before you consider the moral arguments as outlined by Toby above.

We haven't had to play any of these B teams so far, but eventually we might get drawn against one of them.  If that happens, would we refuse to play them and just forfeit the match?  Unlikely I think as we'd be cutting off our nose to spite our face.  In practice the rules currently allow them to take part and we have to abide by the rules.

We played Celtic B two years ago in the Challenge Cup at Airdrie and beat them 3-1.

[Greacen2000]

2 hours ago, dunning1874 said:

Figured this was a better place to discuss it than the Challenge Cup thread. As said there, Rangers B v Alloa will be at Cappielow.

I'm actually really unhappy about this. If Rangers come waving a wad of money around asking to rent Cappielow for their youth teams to play games here, then that's one thing and I get the club are constantly looking for ways to bring money in. Some people might have an issue with allowing them any presence in Inverclyde at all and I see that argument, but I can equally see why the board would go for that: it's exactly the arrangement we had with Celtic years ago when we weren't facing the same financial challenges.

Agreeing to this when it's not youth team fixtures alone but their B Team taking part in first team competitions is an entirely different matter and completely unacceptable. To allow them to use Cappielow for this game is also giving explicit approval of B Teams being in the tournament in the first place, when every club with the best interests of Scottish football at heart - and especially a fan owned one - should be pushing for their removal from the competition. Some top flight clubs have stopped entering B teams into the tournament and there's an opportunity to push for their removal, while the inevitable return of another B team proposal next summer despite the humiliation the SFA endured with the Conference League being pulled before even reaching a vote means we can't be complacent.

There's a principle here that simply shouldn't be broken, and now whenever a proposal does come up again there'll be fingers pointed at Morton fans when we speak up against it, just as there were with Dumbarton and Airdrie, noting the hypocrisy that our club were happy to take 30 pieces of silver from B Teams in the first place.

While I too am dead against b-teams and also am not particularly happy about rangers b team playing down here, I wouldn’t quite go as far as saying that leasing out our ground to them amounts to the club giving any sort of approval/endorsement of their existence & involvement in the tournament.  Certainly not any more so than playing against them would if we were drawn against them(which as Toby pointed out has already happened in the past).

Tangentially, I’m also thinking about the rumours in the transfer thread that we had been “blacklisted” for loans by rangers after Mcpake had a bad experience here.  I’ve no idea if this ever was or still is the case, but given our reliance on the loan market to complete our squad every season it would seem like a good idea for us to try and build good relations with the ugly sisters (albeit while holding our noses).  I would of course draw that line very firmly at supporting any further proposals to expand the involvement of colt teams or bring back the conference idea etc.

[TRVMP]

Whether we like it or not they are valid members of an Association-sanctioned competition and they should be treated as such. If we can make some extra money from the arrangement, so much the better.

Load of fuss over nothing. It's not like we're letting them have the club shop or putting up a big banner that says "let them in at tier 4."

[Cet Homme Charmant]

4 hours ago, Alibi said:

Do we actually make anything from this arrangement?  I don't mean the amount they would pay, but the net profit after the costs involved are deducted - floodlights, utilities costs, any stewarding costs, etc. etc.  .

I'm sure that they have factored in all costs that will be incurred when agreeing to rent out the stadium, and thereby ensured we have charged them enough to make a reasonable profit from it. 

[Toby]

1 hour ago, TRVMP said:

Whether we like it or not they are valid members of an Association-sanctioned competition and they should be treated as such. If we can make some extra money from the arrangement, so much the better.

Load of fuss over nothing. It's not like we're letting them have the club shop or putting up a big banner that says "let them in at tier 4."

“Valid” is a stretch. In the eyes of the governing body perhaps, but certainly not in my opinion.

I get that the club have to make ends meet, and it’s an easy few quid, so upsetting the likes of myself and Dunning should be pretty far down the list of priorities when considering the pros and cons, but I just don’t like it, in much the same way I was vehemently against Celtic’s UEFA Youth League games being played at Cappielow.

It’s perhaps hypocritical of me as I leave a town with a non-league club to go and support a larger club 40-odd miles away, but Inverclyde doesn’t need any more exposure to Rangers than it already has, and certainly doesn’t need it facilitated by Morton, whilst the whole principle of B Teams in the national league set up, or competing in cup competitions with actual, real clubs is abhorrent.

At least it’s a Challenge Cup game on what’ll hopefully be a cold, wet night that there are far more attractive fixtures on the telly, rather than the Barcelona stars of tomorrow rolling into town and kids being given the day off school to watch them play Celtic and get a picture of Cappie the Cat to colour in from Danny Goodwin, but I can’t ever get onboard with either of them being landed on Morton’s doorstep unless absolutely necessary, nor can I accept legitimising B Teams in competitions for first teams under any circumstances.

I don’t doubt this comes across to some as a massive over-reaction, but it’s a no from me every day of the week.