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Crawford Rae, Cappielow and MCT


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23 hours ago, vikingTON said:

Remind us all how Hugh Scott fared in his own effort to close down the football club to realise the value of its underlying land. Turns out that you can in fact mobilise sufficient objections to defeat the will of a market speculator - most of all when you're dealing with a parochial local council where petty matters like electoral popularity do in fact have a bearing on decision-making all the time. That is how (tinpot level) local government actually works, as opposed to the set of incorruptible, homo economicus droids who you bizarrely think run the show.

Scott tried that trick, which everyone saw through, and when it didn't work he put the club into administration. We are talking about the club already being defunct and the land lying fallow for a few years which is a totally different proposition from what happened 20 years ago.

The ultimate measure of a man is not where he stands in moments of comfort and convenience, but where he stands at times of challenge and controversy.
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2 minutes ago, 9 Strathblane Crescent said:

Scott tried that trick, which everyone saw through, and when it didn't work he put the club into administration. We are talking about the club already being defunct and the land lying fallow for a few years which is a totally different proposition from what happened 20 years ago.

You and a handful of others are talking about the club being defunct for years. The rest of us are dealing in a reality in which there is a Greenock Morton in some guise that has a clear use value for the ground, which will be factored into any change of use proposal under Inverclyde Council's watch.

Short of someone sowing the pitch with salt like a conquering Roman army your 'lying fallow' vision is far-fetched nonsense.

The site is supposed to be a place for the extended 'family' of Morton supporters - having an affinity with people that you don't know, because you share a love of your local football club. It's not supposed to be about point scoring and showing how 'clever' or 'funny' you are, or just being downright rude and offensive to people you don't know, because you can get away with it. Unfortunately, it seems the classic case of people who have little standing/presence in real life, use this forum as a way of making themselves feel as if they are something. It's sad, and I've said that before..

 

So, having been on Morton forums for about 15 years I guess, I've had enough... well done t*ssers, another Morton supporter driven away. You can all feel happy at how 'clever' you are

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15 hours ago, vikingTON said:

'Being willing to sit on it' is not the M.O. of property developers. The whole point is to realise a profit as quickly as possible so that you can then reinvest that money on buying another piece of land to develop that and so on. Meanwhile your competitors are still sending their latest plans down to Inverclyde Council to see what Stephen fucking McCabe thinks about things, before then trying to run a football club quite literally out of town.

And that is why people are not queuing round the block to snap up this land. It might look like a single great profit on paper but you can flip equivalent areas multiple times over to realise a larger total profit with absolutely none of the hassle. As Brabco have found to their cost in attempting to empty Dumbarton from their bus shelter to a new ground and use the land for housing in a non-hostile takeover. It took them four years for their plan to get  kicked out by the council and two years later they're sitting on a club that they don't want to run just like Golden Casket and still haven't made forward progress. Shifting Cappielow would be a much harder task.

What you are obviously unaware of is there is such a thing as a Golden Share at Dumbarton. If memory serves me it is under the control, or was the last time I was involved, of either the local MP or MSP and unless they agree to any move it's never going to happen. It was designed in that way to stop exactly what Brabco wanted to do unless the fans were in agreement, which they are not. 

The ultimate measure of a man is not where he stands in moments of comfort and convenience, but where he stands at times of challenge and controversy.
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7 minutes ago, HamCam said:

Do you have any idea what it costs to buy or rent  a site and build even the most basic shoebox stadium - Cappielow would need to be a seriously prime site to justify such a transaction. I know all Morton fans attach a sentimental value to Cappielow but in property terms it is a secondary site with limited potential, most likely residential.

Selling the car park separately is what I thought was always intended. It is still though not a great site with what looks to be a lot of over-burden and goodness knows what 'hidden' below. Unlike Cappielow this land is identified and zoned for 'business' use.

It's not so much Morton fans overvaluing it as a handful of visitors who think that a few boats floating around an empty sugar shed across the street now constitutes a significant upturn in the local economy. House prices have fallen by more than anywhere else in the country and are already at East European levels but aye, I'm sure Stewart Milne is creaming himself at the opportunity.

I agree the car park is probably the split the difference issue and if GC insist on their right to flog that while the club gets an piss-poor alternative elsewhere then so be it. 

The site is supposed to be a place for the extended 'family' of Morton supporters - having an affinity with people that you don't know, because you share a love of your local football club. It's not supposed to be about point scoring and showing how 'clever' or 'funny' you are, or just being downright rude and offensive to people you don't know, because you can get away with it. Unfortunately, it seems the classic case of people who have little standing/presence in real life, use this forum as a way of making themselves feel as if they are something. It's sad, and I've said that before..

 

So, having been on Morton forums for about 15 years I guess, I've had enough... well done t*ssers, another Morton supporter driven away. You can all feel happy at how 'clever' you are

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7 minutes ago, 9 Strathblane Crescent said:

Scott tried that trick, which everyone saw through, and when it didn't work he put the club into administration. We are talking about the club already being defunct and the land lying fallow for a few years which is a totally different proposition from what happened 20 years ago.

But we are still some way off "the club being defunct" and the planning system moves slowly hence the golden asset goose of Cappielow is more like the end of the rainbow for now. As I have also said elsewhere, I struggle with the notion that the site even has 'massive' development value having limited frontage, being hemmed in by the railway, AC, an industrial estate and a road. If there was a bidder hiding in the wings with a pot of cash for Cappielow I suspect the family would have sold by now - realistically the biggest property speculator in this part of the world is the Easdales and they seem to be sitting on their hands.

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6 minutes ago, vikingTON said:

You and a handful of others are talking about the club being defunct for years. The rest of us are dealing in a reality in which there is a Greenock Morton in some guise that has a clear use value for the ground, which will be factored into any change of use proposal under Inverclyde Council's watch.

Short of someone sowing the pitch with salt like a conquering Roman army your 'lying fallow' vision is far-fetched nonsense.

Here was me thinking that we were looking into the future. Nobody in their right mind is talking about a change of purpose for Cappielow right now as that wont happen while there's a football club at Cappielow, that is indeed far fetched nonsense.

The ultimate measure of a man is not where he stands in moments of comfort and convenience, but where he stands at times of challenge and controversy.
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6 minutes ago, 9 Strathblane Crescent said:

What you are obviously unaware of is there is such a thing as a Golden Share at Dumbarton. If memory serves me it is under the control, or was the last time I was involved, of either the local MP or MSP and unless they agree to any move it's never going to happen. It was designed in that way to stop exactly what Brabco wanted to do unless the fans were in agreement, which they are not. 

I'm not unaware of the Golden Share at all. Brabco in fact got the wider club representatives on board for their big plan to move to Dalreoch and flog the land: and it still failed to get past the council. They have barely been since in the two years since that failure.

The fact that an attempt by speculators to flip the land with the consent of the club still stalled and for all intents and purposes has collapsed at the local planning stage underlines the fact that a hostile flogging of Cappielow for hooses or whatever is unlikely to succeed. Given the abundance of viable projects in the area, it would be a massive waste of time, resources and opportunity cost trying to bring this about, which wil be reflected in the ground's real-life value.

The site is supposed to be a place for the extended 'family' of Morton supporters - having an affinity with people that you don't know, because you share a love of your local football club. It's not supposed to be about point scoring and showing how 'clever' or 'funny' you are, or just being downright rude and offensive to people you don't know, because you can get away with it. Unfortunately, it seems the classic case of people who have little standing/presence in real life, use this forum as a way of making themselves feel as if they are something. It's sad, and I've said that before..

 

So, having been on Morton forums for about 15 years I guess, I've had enough... well done t*ssers, another Morton supporter driven away. You can all feel happy at how 'clever' you are

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2 minutes ago, HamCam said:

But we are still some way off "the club being defunct" and the planning system moves slowly hence the golden asset goose of Cappielow is more like the end of the rainbow for now. As I have also said elsewhere, I struggle with the notion that the site even has 'massive' development value having limited frontage, being hemmed in by the railway, AC, an industrial estate and a road. If there was a bidder hiding in the wings with a pot of cash for Cappielow I suspect the family would have sold by now - realistically the biggest property speculator in this part of the world is the Easdales and they seem to be sitting on their hands.

Nobody is going to buy Cappielow with the club there, isn't going to happen. But just because it isn't right on the main road doesn't mean it's not an attractive site if the club is no longer in existence.

The ultimate measure of a man is not where he stands in moments of comfort and convenience, but where he stands at times of challenge and controversy.
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2 minutes ago, 9 Strathblane Crescent said:

Here was me thinking that we were looking into the future. Nobody in their right mind is talking about a change of purpose for Cappielow right now as that wont happen while there's a football club at Cappielow, that is indeed far fetched nonsense.

So your circular 'logic' about what will happen to a derelict Cappielow contributes nothing to the discussion. 

The site is supposed to be a place for the extended 'family' of Morton supporters - having an affinity with people that you don't know, because you share a love of your local football club. It's not supposed to be about point scoring and showing how 'clever' or 'funny' you are, or just being downright rude and offensive to people you don't know, because you can get away with it. Unfortunately, it seems the classic case of people who have little standing/presence in real life, use this forum as a way of making themselves feel as if they are something. It's sad, and I've said that before..

 

So, having been on Morton forums for about 15 years I guess, I've had enough... well done t*ssers, another Morton supporter driven away. You can all feel happy at how 'clever' you are

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2 minutes ago, vikingTON said:

I'm not unaware of the Golden Share at all. Brabco in fact got the wider club representatives on board for their big plan to move to Dalreoch and flog the land: and it still failed to get past the council. They have barely been since in the two years since that failure.

The fact that an attempt by speculators to flip the land with the consent of the club still stalled and for all intents and purposes has collapsed at the local planning stage underlines the fact that a hostile flogging of Cappielow for hooses or whatever is unlikely to succeed. Given the abundance of viable projects in the area, it would be a massive waste of time, resources and opportunity cost trying to bring this about, which wil be reflected in the ground's real-life value.

Funny you never mentioned the Golden Share until I did. But never mind. Nothing stopping Brabco from apply for planning permission to pile on the pressure. Doesn't mean to say they would have ever put a spade in the ground. The situation of course is nothing like what is envisaged at Cappielow at some point in the future. Brabco are trying to move a viable club whereas when it comes to flog Cappielow the club is no longer in existence.

The ultimate measure of a man is not where he stands in moments of comfort and convenience, but where he stands at times of challenge and controversy.
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6 minutes ago, 9 Strathblane Crescent said:

Nobody is going to buy Cappielow with the club there, isn't going to happen. But just because it isn't right on the main road doesn't mean it's not an attractive site if the club is no longer in existence.

I agree with your first comment but not the second - for almost all uses, the lack of frontage materially impacts on potential use and hence value.

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7 minutes ago, vikingTON said:

So your circular 'logic' about what will happen to a derelict Cappielow contributes nothing to the discussion. 

Come back and tell me that when the club no longer exist and Cappielow is be flogged to the highest bidder.

The ultimate measure of a man is not where he stands in moments of comfort and convenience, but where he stands at times of challenge and controversy.
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17 minutes ago, HamCam said:

Do you have any idea what it costs to buy or rent  a site and build even the most basic shoebox stadium - Cappielow would need to be a seriously prime site to justify such a transaction. I know all Morton fans attach a sentimental value to Cappielow but in property terms it is a secondary site with limited potential, most likely residential.

Selling the car park separately is what I thought was always intended. It is still though not a great site with what looks to be a lot of over-burden and goodness knows what 'hidden' below. Unlike Cappielow this land is identified and zoned for 'business' use.

How is it hugely different to the sites in Paisley, Falkirk, Dumbarton, etc. where similar deals have been muted, attempted and completed in recent memory?

The development in Kingston Dock has been a huge success regenerating that side of Inverclyde, which Cappielow is walking distance from. Less than 20 years ago this was derelict industrial site with lord knows how many demolitions required, buy outs to different land owners over a decade or more, chemical assessments, coastal / flooding concerns, a total rejigging of the A78 needed and I'm sure at one point this century not zoned as retail / residential etc. 

If there was a plan afoot to sell the land at Singlair St, developers would be queuing up to make deals, whether planning had been agreed or not. Especially if that involved Morton being rehomed to a fit for purpose ground elsewhere. 

As I've said, I don't believe this is Rae's plan with regards to retaining control of the land, but if the MCT deal falls through and Rae is forced to open up enquiries, who knows what parties might be interested and what their motives would be. 

 

 

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49 minutes ago, vikingTON said:

If the owners of the land were in fact responsible for it being left derelict by kicking out the only show in town to line their investors' pockets then it wouldn't actually be remiss at all: that would simply be the punishment doted out to spiv behaviour. But that's not even remotely where we are and you have set up a hell of a lot of assumptions just to get to that 'sure fire' scenario of yours. 

If the council refused to redesignate the purpose of the land, and turn away a development that could bring investment and/or jobs to the town to 'punish' to the previous owners, it would be remiss of them in the extreme.

I certainly didn't claim it was a 'sure fire' scenario, but it is a possible one we should be aware of and concerned about. Fine for me if you prefer to discount the possibility though. :)

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1 hour ago, HamCam said:

But that is not the current reality. GMFC exists and has an occupational need to continue to play at the hallowed turf of Cappielow hence any short to medium term pitch at alternative use is doomed to fail. The reality has to be factored into the value.

Yeah, if course it's not the current scenario, but that doesn't mean it couldn't be in the future. And the current reality is factored into the value, that's my whole point. 

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Just now, piehutt said:

How is it hugely different to the sites in Paisley, Falkirk, Dumbarton, etc. where similar deals have been muted, attempted and completed in recent memory?

The development in Kingston Dock has been a huge success regenerating that side of Inverclyde, which Cappielow is walking distance from. Less than 20 years ago this was derelict industrial site with lord knows how many demolitions required, buy outs to different land owners over a decade or more, chemical assessments, coastal / flooding concerns, a total rejigging of the A78 needed and I'm sure at one point this century not zoned as retail / residential etc. 

If there was a plan afoot to sell the land at Singlair St, developers would be queuing up to make deals, whether planning had been agreed or not. Especially if that involved Morton being rehomed to a fit for purpose ground elsewhere. 

As I've said, I don't believe this is Rae's plan with regards to retaining control of the land, but if the MCT deal falls through and Rae is forced to open up enquiries, who knows what parties might be interested and what their motives would be. 

 

 

Not sure where to start with this nonsense. 

Every site and development opportunity has to be considered on its own unique set of circumstances. Take the sale of Love Street. St Mirren were very fortunate in that they had a very accommodating authority who were determined to see the club survive in the locality at almost any cost. The club were in a serious financial hole and realistically a sale of Love Street and consent for a relocation was the only escape route - kudos to the Council for helping make it happen. Love Street was identified as being suitable for retail (a supermarket) and Tesco won the bidding war, 'allegedly' not because they wanted to build there but rather they wanted to stop their competitors getting in (Tesco always denied it) but guess what was developed - residential. Tesco paid a pretty penny in securing the Ferguslie Park site, building the stadium and paying a slug of cash that allowed St Mirren to pay off all debt. This does not in anyway compare with where we are with Cappielow. 

You are living in fantasy land when it comes to development potential. The reason Cappielow is in the accounts based on a historic (1999) book value of under £3m is because the fair/market value is less than this figure. Even if Piehutt Developments Ltd came along and decided to offer more than fair/market value at say £5m how does that  financially justify rehoming GMFC elsewhere? The numbers do not stack up. Yes Cappielow would be of interest to speculators but just because I am willing to offer the owners £1 does not make it viable.

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57 minutes ago, HamCam said:

Do you have any idea what it costs to buy or rent  a site and build even the most basic shoebox stadium - Cappielow would need to be a seriously prime site to justify such a transaction. I know all Morton fans attach a sentimental value to Cappielow but in property terms it is a secondary site with limited potential, most likely residential.

Selling the car park separately is what I thought was always intended. It is still though not a great site with what looks to be a lot of over-burden and goodness knows what 'hidden' below. Unlike Cappielow this land is identified and zoned for 'business' use.

Pretty sure it's developable.  The "overburden" as you describe it means the ground level is raised above the surrounding area, which given the flooding problems affecting the main road is a plus factor.  I am fairly sure the contamination from its previous use is all within the top metre or so - would need some remediation for use as gardens but not as important for commercial development.

"Any nation given the opportunity to regain its national sovereignty and which then rejects it is so far beneath contempt that it is hard to put words to it."

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1 minute ago, Cet Homme Charmant said:

Yeah, if course it's not the current scenario, but that doesn't mean it couldn't be in the future. And the current reality is factored into the value, that's my whole point. 

Anything could happen in the future - you might even make an enlightening contribution to this debate 😇.

Not sure what you mean by "into the value" but if it is the number in the accounts the answer is no as this is a cost based figure. If, alternatively, you are talking about fair/market value that, to my knowledge, has not been identified.

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3 minutes ago, Alibi said:

Pretty sure it's developable.  The "overburden" as you describe it means the ground level is raised above the surrounding area, which given the flooding problems affecting the main road is a plus factor.  I am fairly sure the contamination from its previous use is all within the top metre or so - would need some remediation for use as gardens but not as important for commercial development.

Pretty sure it's developable.  The "overburden" as you describe it means the ground level is raised above the surrounding area, which given the flooding problems affecting the main road is a plus factor.  I am fairly sure the contamination from its previous use is all within the top metre or so - would need some remediation for use as gardens but not as important for commercial development.

So good you said it twice. I agree it is potentially developable as is but what are the prospects of a Class 4,5 or 6 development up on 'Andy Morrisons' mound.

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42 minutes ago, 9 Strathblane Crescent said:

Funny you never mentioned the Golden Share until I did. But never mind. Nothing stopping Brabco from apply for planning permission to pile on the pressure.

But they haven't actually done so and aren't even bothering to attend Dumbarton's board meetings. Sure sounds like they're thrilled with how that speculative property investment is working out for them!

"The situation of course is nothing like what is envisaged at Cappielow at some point in the future. Brabco are trying to move a viable club whereas when it comes to flog Cappielow the club is no longer in existence."

The club is in existence now champ and Cappielow is its home. The reality that any buyer of the land has to face then is therefore analogous to Dumbarton at Brabco - except that you seem to think that a hostile attempt to turf the club off the land would have a high chance of success when a bid with the club's backing (Dumbarton) has failed. Swing and a miss.

45 minutes ago, 9 Strathblane Crescent said:

Come back and tell me that when the club no longer exist and Cappielow is be flogged to the highest bidder.

You'll first have to tell us what tragic alias you'll be operating under by then.

The site is supposed to be a place for the extended 'family' of Morton supporters - having an affinity with people that you don't know, because you share a love of your local football club. It's not supposed to be about point scoring and showing how 'clever' or 'funny' you are, or just being downright rude and offensive to people you don't know, because you can get away with it. Unfortunately, it seems the classic case of people who have little standing/presence in real life, use this forum as a way of making themselves feel as if they are something. It's sad, and I've said that before..

 

So, having been on Morton forums for about 15 years I guess, I've had enough... well done t*ssers, another Morton supporter driven away. You can all feel happy at how 'clever' you are

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