Crawford Rae, Cappielow and MCT

[DreamOakTree]

1 minute ago, DreamOakTree said:

That’s the sort of wooly words I’m worried about, no where near the concrete type of statement we need need for a sustainable takeover! MCT need to realise it’s a takeover, not a placation of the previous owners.

Meaning the quote you included of course!

[TRVMP]

I'm also quite wooly-worded, in fairness, but aye.

[Alan_Partridge_Ton]

1 hour ago, TRVMP said:

I'm also quite wooly-worded, in fairness, but aye.

TRVMP,  I have to ask, who is the big eyed boy in your avatar?

[TRVMP]

Just now, Alan_Partridge_Ton said:

TRVMP,  I have to ask, who is the big eyed boy in your avatar?

Frank Sidebottom. But you won't find him on a farm. Just in Timperleeeeey.

[capitanus]

Quote

28 minutes ago, TRVMP said:

Frank Sidebottom. But you won't find him on a farm. Just in Timperleeeeey.

 

28 minutes ago, Alan_Partridge_Ton said:

TRVMP,  I have to ask, who is the big eyed boy in your avatar?

 

Have you seen the film 'Filth'?

I would recommend.

[TRVMP]

I haven't, actually. But I will one day.

[capitanus]

1 hour ago, TRVMP said:

I haven't, actually. But I will one day.

 

[piehutt]

On 9/18/2020 at 11:16 AM, Toby said:

There’s not been enough discussion about this, so I feel a separate thread is appropriate.

Let’s be honest, it’s a dick move from Crawford, only one step up from Hugh Scott’s attempts to bulldoze the place imho. I get that he is looking out for what’s best for his family’s interests, but as a custodian of the club’s he also has a duty of care towards it, which, by stripping it of it’s only major asset, he’s not only neglecting, but actively harming it.

What about MCT’s role, here? Do they realise the position they are in? As far as I can see, they’re the only show in town, and Crawford shouldn’t be holding all the cards. He’s desperate to get the burden of Morton off his family, so I’d about time they started playing hardball over the ownership of the ground. If the two parties can’t come to an agreement because Crawford isn’t prepared to do what’s best for the club, I think it’s obvious where the blame lies.

We can’t go sleepwalking into the regime because a rich man wants to have his cake and eat it.

Your thoughts, please...

 

Obviously the unknown quantity is what Rae would do if MCT started playing hard ball. 

 

Rae is not benefitting financially due to the Peppercorn rent, he is just shoring up GC balance sheet with potential for this asset to be sold back to Morton in the future. 

 

As I've said in other threads, GC could put Morton into administration tomorrow and the assets sold off, probably benefitting GC in the short term given the amount of land and the potential development along the A78 that developers would take a punt on. 

 

Whether MCT could call Rae's bluff on the prospect of administration (if Rae even threatened such a move, I doubt he would). 

In the short term Rae could just withdraw financial support, the club would go part time and be even less well run and wholly dependent on fan income or MCT donations. This is why I believe MCT is the best option and we should all get behind it rather than throwing so much shade on the potential deal they are putting together. 

 

I'm also not sure of the Golden Casket dynamic. If there are other owners and shareholders in GC who want to retire and GC need that asset on the books to shore up their balance sheet to facilitate other people getting on with their lives. I'm sure financially GC could afford to take a £2.6 million hit, but getting that past a board meeting may be a non-starter. 

[piehutt]

In terms of MCT, we have to remember this was originally a vehicle whereby fans could contribute to improve the playing budget. In my view that was always just going to save Rae a bit of cash and was throwing money into a black hole while Rae was in charge. 

Over the last year it's grown arms and legs, much of that I'm sure facilitated by Rae's desire to get out and him seeing an opportunity for MCT as an organisation with their heart in the right place. 

I'm still fairly disappointed that MCT have only 680 or so members. Given there are close to 2,000 people who will happily pay £20 to make their eyes bleed watching some of our games, I'd have thought there would have been a few more keen to support this opportunity.  

I personally see MCT as something I will donate £10 a month to for ever in order to support the club. I live out of town and don't get to many games, so I'm more than happy to make this commitment. Hopefully in the post-Rae era, things can and will improve on the park and I'll be encouraged to go a few more games as well. 

However Morton with 2,000 MCT members @ £10 per month, is a viable Premier League club. With 680, it's probably keeping our heads above water, imo. 

[vikingTON]

Cappielow is not actually listed as commercial development land but you think that the Raes are going to be able to flog the land to a third party as a great investment opportunity while putting the club into administration to get some pesky tenants out of the way? Good luck with that.

[piehutt]

32 minutes ago, vikingTON said:

Cappielow is not actually listed as commercial development land but you think that the Raes are going to be able to flog the land to a third party as a great investment opportunity while putting the club into administration to get some pesky tenants out of the way? Good luck with that.

That's an unknown. In the corporate world, if Rae wanted out GC could force administration and the club put up for sale and / or asset stripped with money raised paying the £2.6 million debt in the Morton balance sheet (I assume almost wholly due to GC). 

Cappielow and the car park is a huge site so it's naïve to think it wouldn't raise a decent price on the open market. Hell no doubt GC could just take the asset and not even worry about trying to sell it on the open market (which is effectively what is happening in the MCT deal). 

I believe Dougie effectively paid £450k for the land in the original deal to get Scott out of the picture, but that area of town has been transformed beyond all recognition with a thriving development along the A78 from the Port Town into Greenock. 

There are plenty of investment funds / property speculators and housing companies who would be interested in a site without planning permission or zoned for recreation and be prepared to sit on land for a decade or more until development was permitted.

the Love Street site has barely been developed despite St Mirren getting £15 million for that in 2007!

To think such a site in Greenock wouldn't be worth £3 to £5 million is just wrong.

[vikingTON]

1 minute ago, piehutt said:

That's an unknown. In the corporate world, if Rae wanted out GC could force administration and the club put up for sale and / or asset stripped with money raised paying the £2.6 million debt in the Morton balance sheet (I assume almost wholly due to GC). Cappielow and the car park is a huge site so it's naïve to think it wouldn't raise a decent price on the open market.

It's not going to be on the open market as commercial land though. A change of purpose would first have to be approved by the second most parochial local council in the country*, and near the top of the mountain of concerns/objections will be 'what happens to the area's only professional football club that currently uses the land?' That's a significant obstacle that would be reflected in any valuation by a potential buyer.

"There are plenty of investment funds / property speculators and housing companies who would be interested in a site without planning permission or zoned for recreation and be prepared to sit on land for a decade or more until development was permitted.

the Love Street site has barely been developed despite St Mirren getting £15 million for that in 2007!

To think such a site in Greenock wouldn't be worth £3 to £5 million is just wrong."

Spoiler alert: There has been one global financial collapse and now a pandemic since 2007. There also isn't any spare demand to build/block a rival supermarket fuelling silly money speculation. The comparison with Love Street is not credible then - and of course one of the main reasons why that deal got the green light from the local authorities was because the football club stood to benefit from having a shoebox built for it at an alternative site. Which doesn't apply to your 'chuck the peasants out, liquidate the club and flog the land' straw man argument.

 

 

 

 

Tl;Dr version - the cards are in no way all stacked in GC's favour as you claim - not least given that they have now proven too incompetent to keep the lights on long enough to slink out the door with their preferred deal - and so your forelock-tugging gratitude routine will be filed in the bin where it belongs.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

* the winner being Clackmannanshire aka the Royston Vasey Village Council

[vikingTON]

I'm really not sure how often our out of town correspondent has actually been to the east end of Greenock incidentally, because building a 'marina' for a handful of boats, a shopping centre in the Port and yet another roundabout has not actually turned it into Monte Carlo.

When the shops up the QB start swapping out Mad Dog for caviar then you might have a point with this 'complete transformation' that increases the value of land by 10x no bother.

[9 Strathblane Crescent]

7 minutes ago, vikingTON said:

It's not going to be on the open market as commercial land though. A change of purpose would first have to be approved by the second most parochial local council in the country*, and near the top of the mountain of concerns/objections will be 'what happens to the area's only professional football club that currently uses the land?' That's a significant obstacle that would be reflected in any valuation by a potential buyer.

"There are plenty of investment funds / property speculators and housing companies who would be interested in a site without planning permission or zoned for recreation and be prepared to sit on land for a decade or more until development was permitted.

the Love Street site has barely been developed despite St Mirren getting £15 million for that in 2007!

To think such a site in Greenock wouldn't be worth £3 to £5 million is just wrong."

Spoiler alert: There has been one global financial collapse and now a pandemic since 2007. There also isn't any spare demand to build/block a rival supermarket fuelling silly money speculation. The comparison with Love Street is not credible then - and of course one of the main reasons why that deal got the green light from the local authorities was because the football club stood to benefit from having a shoebox built for it at an alternative site. Which doesn't apply to your 'chuck the peasants out, liquidate the club and flog the land' straw man argument.

 

 

 

 

Tl;Dr version - the cards are in no way all stacked in GC's favour as you claim - not least given that they have now proven too incompetent to keep the lights on long enough to slink out the door with their preferred deal - and so your forelock-tugging gratitude routine will be filed in the bin where it belongs.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

* the winner being Clackmannanshire aka the Royston Vasey Village Council

Anyone who thinks that Inverclyde Council would pass up an opportunity for investment in Greenock hasn't really being paying attention.

If there is no chance of professional football being played at Cappielow and someone comes along with an investment opportunity at Cappielow that will brings jobs and pay money in rates etc Inverclyde council will rapidly makes changes to the planning restrictions in order for that to happen.   

[piehutt]

14 minutes ago, vikingTON said:

It's not going to be on the open market as commercial land though. A change of purpose would first have to be approved by the second most parochial local council in the country*, and near the top of the mountain of concerns/objections will be 'what happens to the area's only professional football club that currently uses the land?' That's a significant obstacle that would be reflected in any valuation by a potential buyer.

Yes - that's a factor that would keep the value low, but as I said there would be people & businesses who would speculate on that changing in the future. 

 

Spoiler alert: There has been one global financial collapse and now a pandemic since 2007. There also isn't any spare demand to build/block a rival supermarket fuelling silly money speculation. The comparison with Love Street is not credible then - and of course one of the main reasons why that deal got the green light from the local authorities was because the football club stood to benefit from having a shoebox built for it at an alternative site. Which doesn't apply to your 'chuck the peasants out, liquidate the club and flog the land' straw man argument.

It's a credible comparison in that a fraction of £15 million would be enough to satisfy the creditors. If Love Street, with commercial development permission was worth £15 million in 2007, it's realistic to think a larger site without permission is still worth millions 13 years later and is certainly not worth nothing.

Ultimately it's only worth what someone is prepared to pay for it, but a large residential site like Kingston Dock with say 300 properties estimate £40k profit per property is £12 million profit to a developer.

and if the council got a sniff of council tax & economic benefits of 300 homes being built, it's only a matter of time before that happened.  

 

 

 

Tl;Dr version - the cards are in no way all stacked in GC's favour as you claim - not least given that they have now proven too incompetent to keep the lights on long enough to slink out the door with their preferred deal - and so your forelock-tugging gratitude routine will be filed in the bin where it belongs.

They are stacked in GC favour in that they own £2.6 million of debt in the Morton balance sheet. Therefore there is no change of ownership that won't be on their terms. And no scenario whereby they couldn't walk away without at least owning the Morton asset - namely the stadium and land. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

* the winner being Clackmannanshire aka the Royston Vasey Village Council

 

[vikingTON]

18 minutes ago, 9 Strathblane Crescent said:

Anyone who thinks that Inverclyde Council would pass up an opportunity for investment in Greenock hasn't really being paying attention.

If there is no chance of professional football being played at Cappielow and someone comes along with an investment opportunity at Cappielow that will brings jobs and pay money in rates etc Inverclyde council will rapidly makes changes to the planning restrictions in order for that to happen.   

Knocking down a football ground to 'build hooses' isn't an economic investment in the area, it's a one-off windfall. Which opponents would compare with the ongoing contribution of the club to Inverclyde's economy as was handily set out in a study not too long ago. It would also be an extremely unpopular and incendiary issue for a local authority to decide on, given that control of the council is keenly contested by two cynical parties interested in power alone, as well as a stack of independents.

So the only person who hasn't been paying attention here is yourself and not for the first time. The above facts do not of course safeguard GMFC's occupation of Cappielow all by themselves - they do however make mobilising objections entirely feasible and therefore pose a major obstacle to your beloved free market principles taking effect.

[vikingTON]

The point where all these claims fall down btw is in their depiction of GC and the Raes as great captains of industry who would think of nothing in liquidating a more significant local business than their operation and flogging the land for sure-fire megabucks; yet as they have never tired of pointing out to the pleb fanbase, they have actually failed to find a single credible buyer despite putting the club and all that superb land up on the market for a decade now. How unfortunate!

Now they're willing to leave a hated football club behind but will let it squat on this prime land for a peppercorn rent indefinitely out of their sheer kindness of their hearts. 

 

[piehutt]

6 minutes ago, vikingTON said:

Knocking down a football ground to 'build hooses' isn't an economic investment in the area, it's a one-off windfall. Which opponents would compare with the ongoing contribution of the club to Inverclyde's economy as was handily set out in a study not too long ago. It would also be an extremely unpopular and incendiary issue for a local authority to decide on, given that control of the council is keenly contested by two cynical parties interested in power alone, as well as a stack of independents.

So the only person who hasn't been paying attention here is yourself and not for the first time. The above facts do not of course safeguard GMFC's occupation of Cappielow all by themselves - they do however make mobilising objections entirely feasible and therefore pose a major obstacle to your beloved free market principles taking effect.

I can tell you that on a purely economical point, Houses being there are far far better than Morton being there.

And anyway, we are getting way ahead of ourselves here. 

The propsoal is for MCT to take over the club, debt free in exchange for the land which will be rented back at a peppercorn rent. 

We haven't seen the terms of the lease yet, and already people are dead against it. 

Ultimately no opponents of this have a solution except Rae / GC effectively donates £2.6 million to MCT. 

 

1 minute ago, vikingTON said:

The point where all these claims fall down btw is in their depiction of GC and the Raes as great captains of industry who would think of nothing in flogging the land for sure-fire megabucks; yet as they never tired of pointing out to the pleb fanbase before, they have failed to actually find a single credible buyer despite putting the club and land up on the market for a decade. How unfortunate!

Now they're willing to leave but will let the club squat on this prime land for a peppercorn rent indefinitely out of their sheer kindness of their hearts. 

 

A credible buyer would have to pay down the debt (£2.6 million in the 2019 accounts). If they weren't prepared to do that, they wouldn't be credible. 

 

[9 Strathblane Crescent]

7 minutes ago, vikingTON said:

Knocking down a football ground to 'build hooses' isn't an economic investment in the area, it's a one-off windfall. Which opponents would compare with the ongoing contribution of the club to Inverclyde's economy as was handily set out in a study not too long ago. It would also be an extremely unpopular and incendiary issue for a local authority to decide on, given that control of the council is keenly contested by two cynical parties interested in power alone, as well as a stack of independents.

So the only person who hasn't been paying attention here is yourself and not for the first time. The above facts do not of course safeguard GMFC's occupation of Cappielow all by themselves - they do however make mobilising objections entirely feasible and therefore pose a major obstacle to your beloved free market principles taking effect.

Really I mean really, you don't think Inverclyde Council would pass up the opportunity to allow a developer to make use of a piece of land on the main corridor into Greenock because it would make Morton supporters unhappy and they wouldn't vote for them.  You'll be telling me next that they refused the Easdales permission to build on Spango as it was once a hub for manufacturing that allowed Inverclyde Council to name Inverclyde as the Export Capital of Scotland and they want to keep that opportunity open. 

I think my view of the world is a lot more realistic than yours as I do pay attention.

 

[vikingTON]

8 minutes ago, 9 Strathblane Crescent said:

Really I mean really, you don't think Inverclyde Council would pass up the opportunity to allow a developer to make use of a piece of land on the main corridor into Greenock because it would make Morton supporters unhappy and they wouldn't vote for them.  You'll be telling me next that they refused the Easdales permission to build on Spango as it was once a hub for manufacturing that allowed Inverclyde Council to name Inverclyde as the Export Capital of Scotland and they want to keep that opportunity open. 

I think my view of the world is a lot more realistic than yours as I do pay attention.

 

Remind us all how Hugh Scott fared in his own effort to close down the football club to realise the value of its underlying land. Turns out that you can in fact mobilise sufficient objections to defeat the will of a market speculator - most of all when you're dealing with a parochial local council where petty matters like electoral popularity do in fact have a bearing on decision-making all the time. That is how (tinpot level) local government actually works, as opposed to the set of incorruptible, homo economicus droids who you bizarrely think run the show.