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1 hour ago, vikingTON said:

Why would a private owner spend their time and resources building an entirely new (and assumed to be superior: Golden Casket's certainly wasn't) business structure, at a club with no assets in the middle of a looming economic recession? 

 

Because I'm not convinced that assetless GMFC going in to administration would make GMFC properties Ltd owning the stadium that much of a barrier to any perspective owners wishing to take over the club. 

I doubt MCT would want the football club to fold under their watch and in the case of administration MCT members would lose all voting rights I assume as the administrator would be running the club while looking for potential buyers. 

You'll be able to correct me if I'm wrong as well but does MCT and its members have any stake in GMFC properties Ltd that would allow members to vote on the sale of the stadium in the event the football club went in to administration, or would it be up to individual board members of GMFC Properties Ltd to negotiate that with administrators and perspective new owners without any recourse from MCT?

Good people will do good things, bad people will do bad things, but only with religion do good people do bad things!

 

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17 minutes ago, port-ton said:

Because I'm not convinced that assetless GMFC going in to administration would make GMFC properties Ltd owning the stadium that much of a barrier to any perspective owners wishing to take over the club. 

That doesn't make any sense. You were discussing the prospects of a private owner wanting to build a successful business model at Cappielow - now we've jumped to some alternative scenario and theorising about what would happen after administration.

Let's stick to the here and now: why would a private investor spend their time and resources trying to build a successful business model around a football club with no assets in the current economic shitstorm? This is the question that the 'MCT should listen to offers' argument has to address - what offers and why would they be made? 

And while a non-zero chance given the economic challenges across the country right now, I don't see the club sauntering into administration without first transferring to that private ownership. So long as MCT as custodians can maintain their pledge to not burden the club with debt, a budget can pretty much always be set on a break-even basis at the start of each season. 

Edited by vikingTON
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The site is supposed to be a place for the extended 'family' of Morton supporters - having an affinity with people that you don't know, because you share a love of your local football club. It's not supposed to be about point scoring and showing how 'clever' or 'funny' you are, or just being downright rude and offensive to people you don't know, because you can get away with it. Unfortunately, it seems the classic case of people who have little standing/presence in real life, use this forum as a way of making themselves feel as if they are something. It's sad, and I've said that before..

 

So, having been on Morton forums for about 15 years I guess, I've had enough... well done t*ssers, another Morton supporter driven away. You can all feel happy at how 'clever' you are

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1 hour ago, EanieMeany said:

I'm not too sure about this, tbh. I don't think it's all that unreasonable to be going to a football club to invest a lot of money for not much in return and no real power at the club and not be too keen on having a bunch of pearl-clutchers on a message-board debating your character. If it was to actually buy the club then yeah, maybe, but to have a bunch of strangers, the majority of whom wouldn't even look at you if you were in the same room never mind pass comment, thinking their entitled to publicly debate your character so you can whack money into a football team doesn't seem an overtly sinister thing to want to avoid. 


ETA: That's not to say I'd be overly keen on the whole process taking place anonymously, but I don't think somebody withdrawing because of it is proof that there's anything sinister going on. There's simply loads of places where you can put your money, probably a good few where you'll get far more out of it, without getting your reputation taken to bits in public. I'm not sure there's any real way to get round that, but nonetheless I don't think it's unreasonable for people to not want to put themselves in that situation. It doesn't necessarily mean they were hatching some nefarious plan.

All of which is entirely reasonable and I do not disagree with you.  At no point however did I suggest that anything sinister was necessary going on - I just said that I wouldn’t be in favour of it happening if the identity of the investors wasn’t known.

 

The reality of the situation is that the MCT articles require any such deal to be approved by the membership, so that’s the landscape that any prospective investors need to navigate.  It was very clear from those in attendance at the EGM that transparency on the identity of the potential investors was an important issue, and I seriously doubt that the amendment would have even passed had there not been a concession to put any deal to a final vote with full disclosure.

 

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6 minutes ago, vikingTON said:

That doesn't make any sense. You were discussing the prospects of a private owner wanting to build a successful business model at Cappielow - now we've jumped to some alternative scenario and theorising about what would happen after administration.

Let's stick to the here and now: why would a private investor spend their time and resources trying to build a successful business model around a football club with no assets in the current economic shitstorm? This is the question that the 'MCT should listen to offers' argument has to address - what offers and why would they be made? 

And while a non-zero chance given the economic challenges across the country right now, I don't see the club sauntering into administration without first transferring to that private ownership. So long as MCT as custodians can maintain their pledge to not burden the club with debt, a budget can pretty much always be set on a break-even basis at the start of each season. 

Only you were talking about them taking over a club with zero assets, at no point was I.  My point to Dunning was that there are scenarios where a private owner could take over and make the club sustainable, and would be in a better position to do so than our board with full time jobs and families and lack of CEO. Just because Douglas Rae ran us in to the ground financially doesn't mean every private owner would. There's obviously a risk that it could happen again which would be a disaster, but I don't buy that we'd automatically be replacing Douglas Rae for another Douglas Rae. 

At the point of sauntering towards administration, why would a private owner purchase GMFC with no assets after looking at the accounts during the takeover negotiations and seeing the fact they're sauntering towards administration, and consider the fact they'd have a much better shot at negotiations with GMFC properties Ltd with a football club that's in administration. For all we know of any of the potential investors who backed out had already got to that stage of the negotiations and know exactly the financial projections for the club right now without any further investment and are biding their time instead. 

 

 

Good people will do good things, bad people will do bad things, but only with religion do good people do bad things!

 

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16 minutes ago, Greacen2000 said:

All of which is entirely reasonable and I do not disagree with you.  At no point however did I suggest that anything sinister was necessary going on - I just said that I wouldn’t be in favour of it happening if the identity of the investors wasn’t known.

 

The reality of the situation is that the MCT articles require any such deal to be approved by the membership, so that’s the landscape that any prospective investors need to navigate.  It was very clear from those in attendance at the EGM that transparency on the identity of the potential investors was an important issue, and I seriously doubt that the amendment would have even passed had there not been a concession to put any deal to a final vote with full disclosure.

 

Aye, I was just meaning as a general point, not directed at you personally. Apologies for any confusion there.

I don't disagree with the rest either, it's a bit of an usual scenario with one side of the transaction being hundreds of people, and both perspectives are equally valid: one side wants to know who they're opening the door to, the other wants to chuck money in but not have themselves dragged through all manner of public speculation and what not, especially when they're not really going to get anything out of it. That's entirely fair even if it is unfortunate, but it's probably not the first or last time a similar thing has happened with fan-owned clubs. I guess there's always going to be wee curios like that, so it's what it is really.

Edited by EanieMeany
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1 hour ago, EanieMeany said:

I think having no confidence in fan ownership at this stage is pretty reasonable, to be honest. Whilst I think it's too soon to go straight to the "sell up immediately" option,  whether we eventually reach that stage or not is entirely dependant on whether MCT are willing to accept that they've not made a particularly great job of it and be open to totally reforming itself. I posted along these lines recently, below:

If they're not willing to fully engage and to potentially embark on a rapid and radical change of tack that goes beyond the current lack of any real accountability or ingenuity, and they've nothing better to say than asking for loans, then there absolutely has to be a willingness to look for new ownership. 

As a general point, I think it's really quite absurd, frankly, for people to be looking down their noses at "private" ownership. Everybody else seems to be doing not awfully and every single other full-time club has managed to perform far better than us over the past few decades or at least achieve one major thing (cup finals, European football, top-flight football etc), so why exactly Morton should think its above the same ownership models as them when we've achieved precisely fuck all isn't really clear.

I mean, let's be honest: at no point under the Raes outwith the post-administration period, even in the last few years under Crawford, did we find ourselves with a squad as shambolic as the one we do now. There were certainly some rotten ones, but that was down to managers making an arse of it rather than trying to pass off development/reserve players as a huge chunk of the squad.

That's not to say the Rae era was a halcyon one, but let's not try to pretend it ever reached the stage we're at now. Just because that was bad too doesn't mitigate what we have now.

 

 

I'm not too sure about this, tbh. I don't think it's all that unreasonable to be going to a football club to invest a lot of money for not much in return and no real power at the club and not be too keen on having a bunch of pearl-clutchers on a message-board debating your character. If it was to actually buy the club then yeah, maybe, but to have a bunch of strangers, the majority of whom wouldn't even look at you if you were in the same room never mind pass comment, thinking their entitled to publicly debate your character so you can whack money into a football team doesn't seem an overtly sinister thing to want to avoid. 

ETA: That's not to say I'd be overly keen on the whole process taking place anonymously, but I don't think somebody withdrawing because of it is proof that there's anything sinister going on. There's simply loads of places where you can put your money, probably a good few where you'll get far more out of it, without getting your reputation taken to bits in public. I'm not sure there's any real way to get round that, but nonetheless I don't think it's unreasonable for people to not want to put themselves in that situation. It doesn't necessarily mean they were hatching some nefarious plan.

I agree with most of this. However, the Easdales (I'm guessing thats who you, like all of us, are referencing) are so well known in Inverclyde that discussion of them would be inevitable. They had it at Rangers as well.

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20 minutes ago, so72 said:

I agree with most of this. However, the Easdales (I'm guessing thats who you, like all of us, are referencing) are so well known in Inverclyde that discussion of them would be inevitable. They had it at Rangers as well.

I wasn't, but if it was them then just imagine how that discussion would go and the kind of stuff that would get flung about either with or without basis in truth. Is that really something you're going to want to kick off? When there's already plenty of talk about you as it is, why on earth would you invite people to shine that spotlight on your affairs just to put even more money into the club than you already, what good can it possibly do you? And when you're already putting so much money in, why would you agree to it if you're money is good enough the rest of the time? 

Say what you will for them, but you're not going to make the money they have by being that stupid. I doubt very many people at all with enough spare cash to inject it into a floundering football club with no real prospect of a return on it are likely to volunteer for that carry on, to be honest.

If the Easdales are interested in potentially owning the club future, then it'd be even more reason to not get dragged in to a whole stooshy over a relatively minor investment. 

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1 hour ago, port-ton said:

Only you were talking about them taking over a club with zero assets, at no point was I. 

GMFC has no assets right now - that is precisely the operation what 'any offers' would be taking on from MCT. So quite why you're discussing a hypothetical football club with assets that private investors might see a viable investment opportunity in developing is beyond me. 

Edited by vikingTON

The site is supposed to be a place for the extended 'family' of Morton supporters - having an affinity with people that you don't know, because you share a love of your local football club. It's not supposed to be about point scoring and showing how 'clever' or 'funny' you are, or just being downright rude and offensive to people you don't know, because you can get away with it. Unfortunately, it seems the classic case of people who have little standing/presence in real life, use this forum as a way of making themselves feel as if they are something. It's sad, and I've said that before..

 

So, having been on Morton forums for about 15 years I guess, I've had enough... well done t*ssers, another Morton supporter driven away. You can all feel happy at how 'clever' you are

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1 hour ago, port-ton said:

My point to Dunning was that there are scenarios where a private owner could take over and make the club sustainable, and would be in a better position to do so than our board with full time jobs and families and lack of CEO. Just because Douglas Rae ran us in to the ground financially doesn't mean every private owner would. There's obviously a risk that it could happen again which would be a disaster, but I don't buy that we'd automatically be replacing Douglas Rae for another Douglas Rae. 

At the point of sauntering towards administration, why would a private owner purchase GMFC with no assets after looking at the accounts during the takeover negotiations and seeing the fact they're sauntering towards administration, and consider the fact they'd have a much better shot at negotiations with GMFC properties Ltd with a football club that's in administration. For all we know of any of the potential investors who backed out had already got to that stage of the negotiations and know exactly the financial projections for the club right now without any further investment and are biding their time instead.

1) There's no good reason why any serious investor would choose to invest time and money into doing so, at a club with zero assets, in the current economic climate. A lottery winner perhaps but not the hard-nosed businessmen that you think are just waiting in the wings to run a Scottish Championship club. MCT themselves were clear about that at the EGM. 

2) There's no evidence to support this grand conspiracy about the club falling into administration and investors somehow picking up the pieces. So long as the club is debt free and sets a sustainable budget, that doesn't happen. 

So how are they going to get what they want? 

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The site is supposed to be a place for the extended 'family' of Morton supporters - having an affinity with people that you don't know, because you share a love of your local football club. It's not supposed to be about point scoring and showing how 'clever' or 'funny' you are, or just being downright rude and offensive to people you don't know, because you can get away with it. Unfortunately, it seems the classic case of people who have little standing/presence in real life, use this forum as a way of making themselves feel as if they are something. It's sad, and I've said that before..

 

So, having been on Morton forums for about 15 years I guess, I've had enough... well done t*ssers, another Morton supporter driven away. You can all feel happy at how 'clever' you are

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10 minutes ago, vikingTON said:

GMFC has no assets right now - that is precisely the operation what 'any offers' would be taking on from MCT. So quite why you're discussing a hypothetical football club with assets that private investors might see a viable investment opportunity in developing is beyond me. 

Because we've dealt with the here and now you deal in of " nonsense rumours that Dougie clashed with the board over his budget  " or later in the summer  " of course there's budget for players left" or " there's no evidence that we are struggling financially" that we've seen over the past few months yet here we are and they are all true and have been the whole time whether the fans knew it or not. 

It's time some fans take a second to move out of the here and now situation of waiting until the moment we are informed well after the fact of what's going on at the club and realise the stark warning of just how bad the financial situation the club is in without any significant investment or loans. We need loans just to make it through this season, nevermind going forward. 

I agree with you that no potential owner is going to be interested in a club with no assets, but the hypothetical situation you don't want to discuss is far more of a reality than the chance of someone offering to purchase the club with no assets. 

That means we have two options in my opiniom. The preferable option is MCT and the board pull an absolute blinder from nowhere and get significant investment through sponsorships etc that allows us to run in a sustainable fashion at whatever level that may be, or that fan ownership fails and the chances of securing cappielow's future in MCTs hands goes down drastically. 

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Good people will do good things, bad people will do bad things, but only with religion do good people do bad things!

 

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3 hours ago, vikingTON said:

GMFC has no assets right now - that is precisely the operation what 'any offers' would be taking on from MCT. So quite why you're discussing a hypothetical football club with assets that private investors might see a viable investment opportunity in developing is beyond me. 

1 theory I would suggest is the bigger picture which any business savvy investor probably would. I'm aware there is a glass half empty view on this which VT has already posted but let's look at it from a glass half full point of view.

A potential investor in MCT may look at this as a way of getting a foot under the table to be part of a process that could end up MCT in some guise buying the ground at an under market value price. I'm not talking a massive saving but if an investor was to come up with the money it is possible.

So investing what may be pocket money to them in MCT anonymously would in the short term over a few years...possibly look quite attractive if you are looking at a bigger goal on the horizon...investors always do and it would certainly make MCT a more attractive proposition overall.

I remember reading something about MCT and the ground being purchased. I'm sure it was asked and answered at some stage in the process but tbf the details of the reply are a bit vague in my memory tbh.

I bet someone can shed some light on those details and what was said right enough.

This is just a theory but not improbable if you actually do look at potential outcomes....and yes I'm aware it's not just as simple as how I've framed it btw but thought I'd put it out there.

Edited by Nornirontons
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11 hours ago, port-ton said:

Because we've dealt with the here and now you deal in of " nonsense rumours that Dougie clashed with the board over his budget  " or later in the summer  " of course there's budget for players left" or " there's no evidence that we are struggling financially" that we've seen over the past few months yet here we are and they are all true and have been the whole time whether the fans knew it or not. 

It's time some fans take a second to move out of the here and now situation of waiting until the moment we are informed well after the fact of what's going on at the club and realise the stark warning of just how bad the financial situation the club is in without any significant investment or loans. We need loans just to make it through this season, nevermind going forward. 

I agree with you that no potential owner is going to be interested in a club with no assets, but the hypothetical situation you don't want to discuss is far more of a reality than the chance of someone offering to purchase the club with no assets. 

The point in bold is not supported by any evidence and the final paragraph (once again) makes no sense at all. 

The club has no tangible assets for an investor to purchase. Taking it over from MCT does not give them Cappielow or the land. 

The site is supposed to be a place for the extended 'family' of Morton supporters - having an affinity with people that you don't know, because you share a love of your local football club. It's not supposed to be about point scoring and showing how 'clever' or 'funny' you are, or just being downright rude and offensive to people you don't know, because you can get away with it. Unfortunately, it seems the classic case of people who have little standing/presence in real life, use this forum as a way of making themselves feel as if they are something. It's sad, and I've said that before..

 

So, having been on Morton forums for about 15 years I guess, I've had enough... well done t*ssers, another Morton supporter driven away. You can all feel happy at how 'clever' you are

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9 hours ago, Nornirontons said:

A potential investor in MCT may look at this as a way of getting a foot under the table to be part of a process that could end up MCT in some guise buying the ground at an under market value price. I'm not talking a massive saving but if an investor was to come up with the money it is possible.

So investing what may be pocket money to them in MCT anonymously would in the short term over a few years...possibly look quite attractive if you are looking at a bigger goal on the horizon...investors always do and it would certainly make MCT a more attractive proposition overall.

Investors are already able to do this by securing a stake in MCT - and the interested parties withdrew owing to the terms as they are freely entitled to do. That's the reality of the situation. 

The site is supposed to be a place for the extended 'family' of Morton supporters - having an affinity with people that you don't know, because you share a love of your local football club. It's not supposed to be about point scoring and showing how 'clever' or 'funny' you are, or just being downright rude and offensive to people you don't know, because you can get away with it. Unfortunately, it seems the classic case of people who have little standing/presence in real life, use this forum as a way of making themselves feel as if they are something. It's sad, and I've said that before..

 

So, having been on Morton forums for about 15 years I guess, I've had enough... well done t*ssers, another Morton supporter driven away. You can all feel happy at how 'clever' you are

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20 hours ago, EanieMeany said:

Aye, that does seem quite wild. As an idle thought, I wonder if solar panels on the stand and Cowshed roofs could be a viable option to try to bring costs down? 

The problem with being so far north is that for 3 months of the year there's so little daylight that they'd produce next to hee-haw. And of course that's the 3 months when you consume most energy. It could still however be cost effective, but only in the very long term I would assume, unless there are tax incentives or grants to offset some of the installation costs, as there are in many countries.

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18 hours ago, Nornirontons said:

1 theory I would suggest is the bigger picture which any business savvy investor probably would. I'm aware there is a glass half empty view on this which VT has already posted but let's look at it from a glass half full point of view.

A potential investor in MCT may look at this as a way of getting a foot under the table to be part of a process that could end up MCT in some guise buying the ground at an under market value price. I'm not talking a massive saving but if an investor was to come up with the money it is possible.

So investing what may be pocket money to them in MCT anonymously would in the short term over a few years...possibly look quite attractive if you are looking at a bigger goal on the horizon...investors always do and it would certainly make MCT a more attractive proposition overall.

I remember reading something about MCT and the ground being purchased. I'm sure it was asked and answered at some stage in the process but tbf the details of the reply are a bit vague in my memory tbh.

I bet someone can shed some light on those details and what was said right enough.

This is just a theory but not improbable if you actually do look at potential outcomes....and yes I'm aware it's not just as simple as how I've framed it btw but thought I'd put it out there.

I'm not sure how you get from "a potential investor in MCT" to "buying the ground at an under market value price". You can't  "invest" in MCT it's a membership organisation based on one man one vote. You can donate money through your membership contributions but you can't invest. The members of MCT own GMFC Property Ltd and unless persuaded otherwise wouldn't sell the ground "at an under market value price" because once the ground is gone that really would be the end. 

 

Edited by 9 Strathblane Crescent
The ultimate measure of a man is not where he stands in moments of comfort and convenience, but where he stands at times of challenge and controversy.
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