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General Football - Weird Results And Other Things Worth Sharing


TRVMP

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52 minutes ago, capitanus said:

It's merely a negotiation tactic between the cartel/clique of the most powerful clubs vs. UEFA which has backfired spectacularly on them.  There are no German clubs, no Ajax, no Benfica, no PSG, Marseille or Sevilla involved - without whom the whole idea seems to lack legitimacy.  

One thing that this episode has brought to the attention of the masses is that English Football's aristocracy - it's proper elite - Arsenal, Man United and Liverpool - as well as it's old money London gentleman's club, Tottenham Hotspur, all lack the same class that their nouveau riche counterparts, Manchester City and the KGB-funded Chelsea FC also demonstrate on a regular basis.

 

I’m not sure it’s backfired spectacularly- they’ll get some sort of a compromise out of this that’ll ensure that at least the top six from the big leagues get regular Champions League football, either in an extended Champions League or in a tournament that makes it even more difficult for the champions of countries like Denmark, Belgium, Scotland, Austria and Switzerland to qualify for.

Any reputational damage will be minimal as their target market for support will be Asians and Americans that couldn’t give a flying fuck about the principles of European sports culture. Even domestically, Man United fans aren’t going to ditch them for Salford City. The failed franchise that is FCUM is testament to that.

Then in 5-10 years time, they’ll try for an even bigger slice of the cake, hold UEFA to ransom again and get what they want. Rinse and repeat.

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There was a thing going about saying that one of the clubs involved (Spurs?) was calling traditional supporters "legacy fans" and saying that they were outmoded, financially not worth catering to, and were being replaced by the younger, global generation who are more likely to revere and follow individual superstars than they are any given team.

In purely factual terms, they're 90% correct on all counts. There will always be legacy fans, of course, but they'll be an increasingly irrelevant slice of the pie, both numerically and financially, for the global clubs of major metropoles.

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2 hours ago, Toby said:

I’m not sure it’s backfired spectacularly- they’ll get some sort of a compromise out of this that’ll ensure that at least the top six from the big leagues get regular Champions League football, either in an extended Champions League or in a tournament that makes it even more difficult for the champions of countries like Denmark, Belgium, Scotland, Austria and Switzerland to qualify for.

Any reputational damage will be minimal as their target market for support will be Asians and Americans that couldn’t give a flying fuck about the principles of European sports culture. Even domestically, Man United fans aren’t going to ditch them for Salford City. The failed franchise that is FCUM is testament to that.

Then in 5-10 years time, they’ll try for an even bigger slice of the cake, hold UEFA to ransom again and get what they want. Rinse and repeat.

Time will tell obviously, but I don't think that any of the clubs involved anticipated the level of outrage against them either nationally or internationally for pulling this stunt, nor did they anticipate the FA or UEFA calling their bluff by threatening to strip them of their honours or bar them and their players from competitions.

You cited Man United, obviously they are the UK's largest, richest and most successful club, they have been synonymous with success for nearly three decades now, however the same isn't the case for the majority of the other clubs concerned.  For example, the last time Tottenham Hotspur won anything of note was a League Cup in 2008, they seem to survive on the basis they're a big money glamour club from the capital city and a tourist attraction, rather than a club that actually achieves anything.  Chelsea are similar, albeit more successful in recent times by virtue of being financial doped by the KGB; and Man City are merely Coventry City with some rich Arabs financially doping them.  The football climate in non-covid times serves them well, but would they be able to weather a change in public trending, an oil crisis, political crisis or Middle East recession the same way that Man United, Arsenal or Liverpool would?

*insert signature here*

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3 hours ago, capitanus said:

Time will tell obviously, but I don't think that any of the clubs involved anticipated the level of outrage against them either nationally or internationally for pulling this stunt, nor did they anticipate the FA or UEFA calling their bluff by threatening to strip them of their honours or bar them and their players from competitions.

You cited Man United, obviously they are the UK's largest, richest and most successful club, they have been synonymous with success for nearly three decades now, however the same isn't the case for the majority of the other clubs concerned.  For example, the last time Tottenham Hotspur won anything of note was a League Cup in 2008, they seem to survive on the basis they're a big money glamour club from the capital city and a tourist attraction, rather than a club that actually achieves anything.  Chelsea are similar, albeit more successful in recent times by virtue of being financial doped by the KGB; and Man City are merely Coventry City with some rich Arabs financially doping them.  The football climate in non-covid times serves them well, but would they be able to weather a change in public trending, an oil crisis, political crisis or Middle East recession the same way that Man United, Arsenal or Liverpool would?

Thing is though, all of these factors are relevant whether these clubs want to join this Super League or not. If it doesn’t work, folk lose their jobs and the clubs return to their natural level or below, as clubs like Leeds have (hilariously) found in the not too distant past.

I think you’re probably right in saying they didn’t anticipate the outrage, but I still very much doubt they care. Like no other business I’d suggest football sees it’s fans as an inconvenience anyway, and since when did Juventus, for example give two hoots about silly wee things like rules and governing bodies?

In the case of City, they’ve been synonymous with success for the best part of a decade now. Of course it’s not on the same scale as United, but it fits in with the idea of binning “legacy fans” and bringing in a new breed from around the world to buy nylon shirts and stream games from their website. When I started watching football, Aberdeen winning the Cup Winners Cup appeared to me to be generations ago, when in reality it was only about 5-6 years before my interest was really spiked. City’s Aguero moment is every bit as, if not more relevant to some wee guy sitting in front of a laptop in Singapore as Solskjaer’s winner in the Nou Camp 22 years ago.

United’s success is relevant, but more so to guys like ourselves than City’s target support.

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17 hours ago, capitanus said:

I don't think this elite superleague is inevitable - the fact that the big clubs in Germany - most notably Bayern Munich and Borussia Dortmund - are not involved would suggest that it's not all the top clubs in Europe wish to be involved in this.  The same for the top clubs in France, Portugal, Turkey, Russia and the Netherlands.

One thing that grates with me is all these overseas owners in the British game - mostly those from the Middle East and the old Soviet Bloc - they've ruined it.  What's going to happen to Man City when their rich owners face difficult times or get bored with Football?  Ditto Chelsea and several other clubs.   It's the same old story that not everyone who rocks up at a football club with a big bank balance has the club or the game's best interests at heart.

People with no interest in football owning clubs for the sole purpose of making money inevitably results in conflict with the legacy fans. As for this latest money-making venture is it not being driven by Americans on an American model rather than the bogeymen from the Middle East and old Soviet Bloc?

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5 hours ago, HamCam said:

People with no interest in football owning clubs for the sole purpose of making money inevitably results in conflict with the legacy fans. As for this latest money-making venture is it not being driven by Americans on an American model rather than the bogeymen from the Middle East and old Soviet Bloc?

How long before the word franchise appears in the football lexicon 

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1 hour ago, TaunTon said:

How long before the word franchise appears in the football lexicon 

It already does in MLS. Incidentally, when New York City FC joined in 2015, their franchise fee to the league was $100m. The fee for Charlotte, who are joining soon, is rumored to be $325m.

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2 minutes ago, TRVMP said:

It already does in MLS. Incidentally, when New York City FC joined in 2015, their franchise fee to the league was $100m. The fee for Charlotte, who are joining soon, is rumored to be $325m.

Can't wait to see Manchuria United.

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Already dead in the water. 

 

Ban any American, or anyone with a controlling interest in an American sport franchise, from ever owning any part of a club here ever again. They're snakes who can't be trusted. 

 

The Glazers, Kroenkes and Henry need Mussolini'd

Edited by Hej
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12 minutes ago, TaunTon said:

Can't wait to see Manchuria United.

Eventually the music's going to stop with MLS expansion. It's reaching absurd levels.

That's Ed Woodward resigning, allegedly. Wonder if he's making a principled stand, or if he's being used as a blood sacrifice, or if he was genuinely instrumental in building the scheme? Bit of a weird one. He strikes me as, at best, a bit-part player in what's something far bigger than him.

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I think that the six clubs pulling out of the 'Superleague' proposal is vindication that 'legacy fans' mean more to football clubs than any number of Chinese Fanboys who have recently discovered them, despite what we've read and heard elsewhere in recent days.

Like Trvmp was saying in recent days, the Champions League is a great competition.  The same can be said for the Europa League.  Granted they aren't perfect but they represent the natural pinnacle of the club game in Europe.  The English Premiership is also a great competition too, why any self respecting British football club would forsake such a competition to get into bed with some cheating bastards like Juventus and Real Madrid is beyond me.

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*insert signature here*

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5 minutes ago, capitanus said:

I think that the six clubs pulling out of the 'Superleague' proposal is vindication that 'legacy fans' mean more to football clubs than any number of Chinese Fanboys who have recently discovered them, despite what we've read and heard elsewhere in recent days.

Like Trvmp was saying in recent days, the Champions League is a great competition.  The same can be said for the Europa League.  Granted they aren't perfect but they represent the natural pinnacle of the club game in Europe.  The English Premiership is also a great competition too, why any self respecting British football club would forsake such a competition to get into bed with some cheating bastards like Juventus and Real Madrid is beyond me.

I agree - for the time being. Eventually this won't be the case. The younger generation follows players, not clubs, for the most part. But it's clear TSL jumped the gun. For one thing, the age of crowds and TV subscribers remain stubbornly old (and this is partially financial - what guy in his early 20s could even afford a standard top six season ticket these days? The average age of the matchgoer doubled between the late 80s and early 2000s and price was clearly a factor.)

Yet the trend line is only going one way. Legacy supporters are dying out, literally, and not being replaced in the same number, while more and more countries hit middle-income status next year. Hence football will follow Hollywood. Blockbusters aren't made anymore for the Johnson family in Moline, Illinois to watch at the mall multiplex. (For one thing, the Johnsons are probably all dead from an Oxycontin overdose.) Instead they're made for audiences in Istanbul and Guangzhou and Jakarta. Similarly the ideal of top-flight football being played for some Benny-and-water drinkers in Burnley is going to be increasingly anachronistic. People like us who want to keep local, professional football alive will be increasingly isolated. 

For a preview of what this looks like in practice, read about the utter decimation of Minor League Baseball over the past few years. 

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2 hours ago, TRVMP said:

 For a preview of what this looks like in practice, read about the utter decimation of Minor League Baseball over the past few years. 

The very fact they call themselves 'Minor League' is begging for failure, as it's like an open admission they're shite. It's would be like our leagues outside the Premiership rebranding themselves as Diddy League 1, 2 & 3.

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4 minutes ago, Cet Homme Charmant said:

The very fact they call themselves 'Minor League' is begging for failure, as it's like an open admission they're shite. It's would be like our leagues outside the Premiership rebranding themselves as Diddy League 1, 2 & 3.

Not their choice, it's a subsidiary of the Majors, and much like with Junior football (RIP) and Junior hockey in Canada, it's now such a huge part of the vernacular that even if they changed the name, people would still say "oh, Major League pitcher X is back from surgery, he's been sent down to the minors to get warmed up."

Non-Major baseball that isn't Minor is called Independent, which is of course a badass name but in terms of quality it's virtually always below the highest Minor grade, which is AAA. These are scrappy, self-made teams that get few fans and don't pay much. My father-in-law threw out the first pitch on opening day for one Independent team a few years ago. They disbanded last year, unfortunately. I assume the two things weren't related.

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2 hours ago, TRVMP said:

For one thing, the age of crowds and TV subscribers remain stubbornly old (and this is partially financial - what guy in his early 20s could even afford a standard top six season ticket these days? The average age of the matchgoer doubled between the late 80s and early 2000s and price was clearly a factor.)

These are really interesting statistics but I'm left wondering, what leagues do they apply to? The EPL for sure, but also the Bundesliga, for example? There they seem, on the surface anyway, to be far more 'legacy fan' orientated, as demonstrated by the fact that no German clubs gormlessly jumped on board the ESL bandwagon. Presumably that's because they're more sympathetic and understanding of the 'legacy fan', and the reaction they would have generated had they done so. The big Bundesliga clubs and PSG are the only clubs to have come out of the ESL fiasco with at least some degree of integrity and credibility intact.

On a side note, Schalke 04 were officially relegated this evening after a truly dismal season with only two league wins so far. Quite a remarkable and relatively sudden decline for a club of that size. 

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1 hour ago, Cet Homme Charmant said:

These are really interesting statistics but I'm left wondering, what leagues do they apply to? The EPL for sure, but also the Bundesliga, for example? There they seem, on the surface anyway, to be far more 'legacy fan' orientated, as demonstrated by the fact that no German clubs gormlessly jumped on board the ESL bandwagon. Presumably that's because they're more sympathetic and understanding of the 'legacy fan', and the reaction they would have generated had they done so. The big Bundesliga clubs and PSG are the only clubs to have come out of the ESL fiasco with at least some degree of integrity and credibility intact.

On a side note, Schalke 04 were officially relegated this evening after a truly dismal season with only two league wins so far. Quite a remarkable and relatively sudden decline for a club of that size. 

Sorry I should have said - that's the Premier League specifically. It went all-in on season ticket holders and now its grounds are geriatric. Some more then others, of course. So a huge proportion of their match day revenue derives from people who show up every week in a regular seat. 

Then you have many of the North American franchises, which went all-in on corporate suites - or as we call it in Scotland, hospitality. Again, some more than others. For the most part, then, their revenue derives from ultra-luxurious boxes which are either rented by a single company, or by an agency that lets them out on a game-by-game basis, for the purpose of entertaining (read: bribing) clients. (Here in Texas, so far as I can tell a goodly percentage of the state economy is based on mid-cap corporations giving each other tickets to the rodeo. As a fan of the rodeo, I approve of this.*)

The Bundesliga, meanwhile, seems to have squared the circle. It has a robust corporate hospitality scene, and a sponsorship programme that manages to be simultaneously robust and discreet. (I remember in my early days of attending the then-Dallas Burn games, corner kicks were sponsored, a fact loudly advertised over the PA at each incidence.) And they prize full, loud stadiums, so they charge a decent amount and often offer subsidized transport. It's a very German way of doing it - democratic, thoughtful, pragmatic, and above all absolutely dripping in cash. 

I would say thus is a byproduct of German club ownership - they are run by their members - except that the same is true of Barcelona and Real Madrid, both of whom (despite the former's pretensions towards some kind of lame workers' collective) are the polar opposite of this. So who knows? Maybe it's a German thing. 

*My current employer mailed me an insulated mug for my one year anniversary of employment. I was hoping for a rodeo ticket. Perhaps next year. 

Edited by TRVMP

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Was looking at the AFC Champions League. For the first time, Tajikistan has sent a representative to Asia's top club tournament - and they're doing extremely well. Istiklol, the biggest team in the country, have got through the group stage, with a game to go sitting joint-top with Saudi giants Al-Hilal - whom they sensationally beat 3-0 earlier in the competition.

Istiklol - Tajik for independence - won the President's Cup (the now-defunct trophy only for the diddiest of Asian nations) some years ago and came close in the AFC Cup - their Europa League - after that. But they've found the step up easy, and Shabab (UAE) and AGMK (Uzbekistan) are out.

The West region groups, A-E, are heading to their last matchday. But in the East the group stage hasn't even begun. Due to the 'rona they have, indeed, not even played their qualifiers yet. Is this the first time a group stage will end in a competition before the preliminaries are over? Brisbane face Phillipine outfit Kaya-Iloilo in the prelims, then the winners play Shanghai Port in a playoff, all for the right to meet BG Pathum Utd (Thailand), Ulsan (South Korea) and Viettel (Vietnam) in the groups.

(Incidentally, Thai Port, in Group J alongside Guangzhou (China) and Kitchee (Hong Kong) and another playoff winner, were formerly home to ex-skunk Steven Robb.)

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