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Strict Liability


capitanus

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To play Devil’s Advocate about home clubs being punished for the behaviour of away fans- Morton failed to control the Falkirk support the other week when Zak Rudden scored by not policing the away end sufficiently. Of course more blame should be apportioned to Falkirk for the behaviour of their fans, but to say Morton have made no failings there would be completely wrong.

 

 

Agree with this, both clubs should be sanctioned under strict liability for that sort of incident.

 

The problem in the discussion is the lumping together of all types of incident - from pitch invasions to sectarian singing. Punishing home fans for the singing of away fans, an issue they didn't contribute to or couldn't prevent, doesn't make as much sense as it does for the likes of a pitch invasion.

 

Unless there was some sort of clause that excuses punishment if the club can prove they took all possible steps to prevent it and/or deal with it at the time (so not just burying their head, turning a blind eye, but ejecting people).

 

The problem is, with a get out clause, it would get used too often, negating strict liability after all.

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To play Devil’s Advocate about home clubs being punished for the behaviour of away fans- Morton failed to control the Falkirk support the other week when Zak Rudden scored by not policing the away end sufficiently. Of course more blame should be apportioned to Falkirk for the behaviour of their fans, but to say Morton have made no failings there would be completely wrong.

 

 

 

I agree with that aspect of it. If Morton aren't willing to pay to properly steward away fans in the WDE, then they should sell tickets for them to sit in the stand. I don't think it would be wrong to punish clubs for not preparing accordingly (not that I'm necessary for strict liability). 

 

 

Agree with this, both clubs should be sanctioned under strict liability for that sort of incident.

 

The problem in the discussion is the lumping together of all types of incident - from pitch invasions to sectarian singing. Punishing home fans for the singing of away fans, an issue they didn't contribute to or couldn't prevent, doesn't make as much sense as it does for the likes of a pitch invasion.

 

Unless there was some sort of clause that excuses punishment if the club can prove they took all possible steps to prevent it and/or deal with it at the time (so not just burying their head, turning a blind eye, but ejecting people).

 

The problem is, with a get out clause, it would get used too often, negating strict liability after all.

 

I agree with this as well. Clubs have a certain level of responsibility over policing their events, but how could you stop one person from throwing a coin at a player if they so wished? Or how does a home club stop away fans from shouting/singing racist or sectarian stuff? 

 

All a club can do is a reasonable job of policing the ground (which we didn't do against Falkirk). That might involve ejecting individuals when necessary and making sure that there is an appropriate level of stewarding and policing. But if your going to allow away fans into your ground, there's a certain level of trouble that cannot be ruled out without completely disproportionate action being taken against those fans in advance (e.g. banning away fans, making them buy tickets with id, etc.). 

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I always thought there could be some sort of joint liability with the proportion of blame handed down by the league/SFA in the event of any trouble. Clubs would need to agree to any controls in advance of a match and get approval for them. That way repeat offenders would have gradually stricter controls/punishments applied. If e.g. a teams fans kept wrecking seats at away games then their away allocation could be reduced as they would be to blame.

 

The obvious problem with this is that the governing bodies can't even handle the game-related disciplinary rules never mind something more complicated.

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Its a dangerous idea for club football. Just because someone has an address in Greenock doesn't mean he's a Morton fan.

If they are in the away section it is a slight clue...

"Any nation given the opportunity to regain its national sovereignty and which then rejects it is so far beneath contempt that it is hard to put words to it."

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You can’t buy a ticket for any sporting event in Cyprus without having an I.D. Card because of violence caused by fans.

The cards are €3 and last for 3 years but when purchasing one you have to produce your passport and a photo. Youthen have to buy a ticket for each event you attend and they take the details from your I.D. card.

It’s the same routine for every event, not just football.

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You can’t buy a ticket for any sporting event in Cyprus without having an I.D. Card because of violence caused by fans.

The cards are €3 and last for 3 years but when purchasing one you have to produce your passport and a photo. Youthen have to buy a ticket for each event you attend and they take the details from your I.D. card.

It’s the same routine for every event, not just football.

Get that idea to fuck.
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Yup. That's exactly the type of thing I was meaning by a disproportionate response.

Yeah because there’s only been widespread sectarian chanting, smashing up away ends, coin throwing and actual physical assaults on players, managers and officials taking place throughout the season.

The site is supposed to be a place for the extended 'family' of Morton supporters - having an affinity with people that you don't know, because you share a love of your local football club. It's not supposed to be about point scoring and showing how 'clever' or 'funny' you are, or just being downright rude and offensive to people you don't know, because you can get away with it. Unfortunately, it seems the classic case of people who have little standing/presence in real life, use this forum as a way of making themselves feel as if they are something. It's sad, and I've said that before..

 

So, having been on Morton forums for about 15 years I guess, I've had enough... well done t*ssers, another Morton supporter driven away. You can all feel happy at how 'clever' you are

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  • 2 weeks later...

I see the idiot that tried to square up to James Tavernier has been jailed. Plenty of whinging about it on Twitter, but I struggle to see the problem to be honest. If you're going to behave like that at somebody's place of work then you deserve all you get and if making examples of clowns like this is what it takes to try to prevent a player getting seriously hurt then so be it.

 

Being drunk isn't an excuse for being an arsehole.

 

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-edinburgh-east-fife-47856643

AWMSC

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I really don't see how anyone can complain about it. He could have been jailed for up to 12 months, was sentenced to 100 days and will only serve about two thirds of it. 

You address me by my proper title, you little bollocks! 


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I really don't see how anyone can complain about it. He could have been jailed for up to 12 months, was sentenced to 100 days and will only serve about two thirds of it.

Most of the complaints I’ve seen about it have involved comparisons with a nonce that received a suspended sentence for his crimes today, which is understandable.

 

What surprises me (it doesn’t really) is that Ryan Kent hasn’t faced police charges for “allegedly” punching someone on the park. Butcher, Woods, Roberts and McAvennie were hauled in front of a judge for far less in 1987.

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Most of the complaints I’ve seen about it have involved comparisons with a nonce that received a suspended sentence for his crimes today, which is understandable.

 

What surprises me (it doesn’t really) is that Ryan Kent hasn’t faced police charges for “allegedly” punching someone on the park. Butcher, Woods, Roberts and McAvennie were hauled in front of a judge for far less in 1987.

 

Also not particularly valid though. Just because one sentence was clearly wrong doesn't really mean another is wrong too. I quite like the line that the guy "became intoxicated by the fresh air" though, because of course it's fresh air that gets you blootered and not the 10 pints you necked. Talk about refusing to accept responsibility.

 

Whilst there's obviously issues with policing and stewarding in some cases, the victim routine a lot of football fans are casting themselves in is rather t tedious. As another example, GlasgowLive posted a story about a group of people fighting and throwing chairs about outside the Toby Jug last Sunday with no reference to the Old Firm game which was on at all, yet the replies were all "it was them, wisnae us", "it was only a few people, it's not a big deal". Everybody else thinks one person chucking chairs about the city centre is too many, whilst a section of football punters think it's fine as long as it's under a certain number.

 

I don't expect nor want people to go to games and stand in silence for 90 minutes, I thoroughly enjoy games which get really heated with a bit poison in the air, but I can't be doing with the whole "it was at the football so it's fine" routine either. Going to a game isn't a license to be a dickhead.

 

ETA: So-called journalist Neil Cameron was rattling on about the Kent thing being alright because it was in a game too. Not really sure a punch in the face is any more merited on a football park than anywhere else, but there you go.

AWMSC

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Most of the complaints I’ve seen about it have involved comparisons with a nonce that received a suspended sentence for his crimes today, which is understandable.

 

Comparing the sentencing of a breach of the peace and a sexual offence is in the realm of apples and oranges. They are two different crimes with two totally different sets of circumstances, and therefore will tend to get two different types of sentences. The two sets of sentencing objections are completely different to each other. 

You address me by my proper title, you little bollocks! 


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ETA: So-called journalist Neil Cameron was rattling on about the Kent thing being alright because it was in a game too. Not really sure a punch in the face is any more merited on a football park than anywhere else, but there you go.

 

Most of the reporting of the 'punch' refer to it as a push to the face. Granted the photos made it look worse than it was but still weird deflection of it being a punch. 

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Most of the complaints I’ve seen about it have involved comparisons with a nonce that received a suspended sentence for his crimes today, which is understandable.

What surprises me (it doesn’t really) is that Ryan Kent hasn’t faced police charges for “allegedly” punching someone on the park. Butcher, Woods, Roberts and McAvennie were hauled in front of a judge for far less in 1987.

All of those players from that game were punished on the park at the time (except Roberts, who was “conducting” a chorus of “Hello Hello” from the crowd in the final seconds).

They were later charged with breach of the peace. Butcher and Woods were found guilty and fined. McAvennie was found not guilty, Roberts not proven.

 

Kent’s case would be more comparable to the Duncan Ferguson/John McStay incident.

McGhee needs some support, there's no-one backing him up.
Hayes playing it forward, Bell being forced to do it all alone, now forward from Marr, here's Ritchie, still Andy Ritchie, look at the control...

That is a marvellous goal from Andy Ritchie. Twenty minutes on the clock and Morton's supporters come alive. A goal which epitomises the control, the arrogance, the cheek of Andy Ritchie.

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