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General Football - Weird Results And Other Things Worth Sharing


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I think squaring up to Duffy at Easter Road last season summed him up. He charged about like a fanny, knowing that people would get in between him and Duffy. At one point, if Lennon has reached out, he could easily have reached Duffy. He realised his position and bounced behind one of his coaches before continuing to shout the odds. Duffy would have booted the s***e out of him had it got physical. Jumps about shouting the odds when he knows people will prevent it anyone landing one on him, but probably takes a security guard out with him to buy a pint of milk.

 

I do enjoy his antics, but one day someone is going to do him some serious damage.

Add to that his own ****ing stupidity.

There's no doubt that that fuels some of it, but the fact that he's routinely an absolute helmet is a far bigger factor by this stage.You can't run about behaving like he does and not be a hate figure, but I suppose you need to fuel the victim complex. I don't really buy into the "he's interesting"; as I said before, there's a difference between banter, a wind-up and being a dickhead and that's what Lennon more often than not is.

 

When you see him in interviews on other subjects he comes across as quite intelligent, insightful and good-humoured, which makes his meltdowns all the more pathetic.

SSB is a hard listen tonight.

 

"Its cos he's an irish kafflick"

 

No; its because hes a ****ing weapon a lot of the time.

Anton Rogan, Alan McKnight and Paul Byrne seemed to have hassle free time in Scotland despite being Northern Irish and Celtic players.

 

I think two problems with Lennon which nobody ever seems to mention - he is an ugly looking ginger - he looks like the mirror image of a permascowling typical Rangers fan, but he isn't one of them, he's one of 'them' instead. That is a bit hard for them to get their heads round.

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I see a Rangers player was hit by a coin on Saturday, with reports that Craig Samson had some thrown at him too (which isn't entirely surprising given the set of fans involved...).

 

Those incidents plus the Hearts' goalie being punched, coins being flung at Hibs players, the linesman being hit with one a few weeks ago amongst other things not only disprove the already strange notion that Lennon was somehow targeted for his religion at Tynecastle and he alone was a victim, but make such claims quite dangerous as they're over-shadowing something that seems to be becoming a bit of a recurring theme.

 

There's a problem with arseholery in certain quarters of Scottish football which merits a better discussion than "poor wee Neil" as the sole victim.

Edited by EanieMeany

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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oJTkXhrP1Aw

 

I don't know if anyone else watched this, but I thought it was a really compelling interview. He sounds like a really low-maintenance and dedicated professional. Given his levels of athleticism and ability, I think he would have beaten Kenny Dalglish as Scotland's most capped player if he hadn't been crippled by his condition. 

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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oJTkXhrP1Aw

 

I don't know if anyone else watched this, but I thought it was a really compelling interview. He sounds like a really low-maintenance and dedicated professional. Given his levels of athleticism and ability, I think he would have beaten Kenny Dalglish as Scotland's most capped player if he hadn't been crippled by his condition.

 

Definitely one of the most under-rated Scottish players of the past 30 years, and a good servant to the Scottish national team throughout that time. Guys like James McArthur would do well to follow his example.

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Definitely one of the most under-rated Scottish players of the past 30 years, and a good servant to the Scottish national team throughout that time. Guys like James McArthur would do well to follow his example.

 

Yep, agreed. Always got a rough time of it from some quarters which seemed to stem from the notion that because he played for Man Utd he should have been winning games single-handedly, but by and large he was an excellent player for us and is perhaps the perfect role-model for younger players. 

 

This might have been discussed in the national team thread, but for all Berti Vogts' flaws, he deserves a lot of credit for the belief and trust he put in Fletcher and McFadden at the time. I could see a similar situation unfolding with McLeish, whereby he's had to blood a lot of young players then somebody else comes in a takes them on much the way he himself did in the '08 qualifiers.

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Berti Vogts is a strange one, because he wasn't a bad coach - let's face it, he won the European Championships in 1996 and was runner up in 1992, and he also qualified for the Champions League with Bayer Leverkusen, however he represents the perfect example of a manager/coach who knew and understood his homeland but was unable to work his magic in other markets. That was possibly his biggest flaw, rebuilding Craig Brown's team when a lot had since retired and not knowing the UK leagues where most of his players had played. With the benefit of hindsight, Scotland should have appointed George Graham/Stewart Houston or Roy Hodgson when Craig Brown retired.

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This might have been discussed in the national team thread, but for all Berti Vogts' flaws, he deserves a lot of credit for the belief and trust he put in Fletcher and McFadden at the time. I could see a similar situation unfolding with McLeish, whereby he's had to blood a lot of young players then somebody else comes in a takes them on much the way he himself did in the '08 qualifiers.

 

Tangential, but this is something that comes up fairly often on P&B and while Fletcher and McFadden did go on to be mainstays of the team, I'd argue that by the time they became regulars they were obvious picks who couldn't be overlooked,and otherwise you can't really give Vogts much credit for the relative improvement of the team in the years after he left.

 

I'll spoiler them because they're massive, but here's a couple of posts I made on whether giving him credit for 2008 or excusing him because of what he was left by Brown are below.

 

 

 

I decided to look more closely at the claim that McLeish was handed a batch of good players due to Berti Vogts blooding them, and the obvious implication from D.A.F.C that he only achieved good results because he was in the right place at the right time to benefit from Vogts giving players experience in the first place a few years earlier.

 

McLeish was Scotland manager for 10 games, including two friendlies. The number of caps players won under him is as follows, with the manager who gave them their debuts in brackets:

 

Craig Gordon - 10 (Vogts)

Stephen McManus - 10 (Smith)

David Weir - 9 (Brown)

Barry Ferguson - 8 (Brown)

Kris Boyd - 8 (Smith)

Scott Brown - 7 (Smith)

Lee McCulloch - 7 (Vogts)

Shaun Maloney - 7 (Smith)

Darren Fletcher - 7 (Vogts)

Graham Alexander - 6 (Vogts)

Alan Hutton - 6 (McLeish)

Gary Naysmith - 6 (Brown)

Paul Hartley - 6 (Smith)

Kenny Miller - 6 (Brown)

James McFadden - 6 (Vogts)

Garry O'Connor - 6 (Vogts)

Gary Teale - 5 (Smith)

Craig Beattie - 5 (Smith)

Stephen Pearson - 4 (Vogts)

Gary Caldwell - 2 (Vogts)

Jay McEveley - 2 (McLeish)

Christian Dailly - 2 (Brown)

Charlie Adam - 2 (McLeish)

Allan McGregor - 1 (McLeish)

Graeme Murty - 1 (Vogts)

Russell Anderson - 1 (Vogts)

Barry Robson - 1 (McLeish)

Steven Naismith - 1 (McLeish)

 

So 28 players were capped by Alex McLeish. 10 were given their debuts by Berti Vogts, 7 by Walter Smith, 6 by McLeish and 5 by Craig Brown. Okay, more players did get their first cap under Vogts than any other manager, but it's hardly a wild discrepancy. If you were seriously going to argue that Vogts deserves the credit for that campaign as it was achieved with his squad, you'd expect more than half of them to have came from him, but that's not the case. Considering that McLeish had his year in charge three years after Vogts' two year spell ended, you'd expect several players to have been given their first caps by Vogts - it simply makes sense that players around the 25-28 age bracket in 2007 would have been getting their first caps from 2002-04.

 

If you examine it by number of appearances to differentiate the importance of players rather than giving equal weight to players with 10 caps and players with 1 (Craig Gordon appeared in every minute of every competitive game whereas Allan McGregor got 45 minutes in a friendly so obviously that's not comparing like for like) it works out as Vogts - 50; Smith - 48; Brown - 31; McLeish - 11. There's a difference of two appearances between players given debuts by Vogts and Smith - Vogts was barely more responsible for blooding the spine of that team than Smith was. McManus, Brown, Hartley, Maloney and Boyd came from Smith, Weir, Ferguson, Miller and Naysmith came from Brown, Hutton from McLeish.

 

What's more, when the discussion of Brown's failure to prepare for a transition and Vogts being landed with a bad situation as a result was had on the Strachan thread the other day, there was widespread agreement that you couldn't give Brown credit for giving players like Kenny Miller, Scott Severin, Gavin Rae and Stevie Crawford who went on to feature more frequently under Vogts their first caps, because they hadn't featured enough and were still inexperienced when Vogts was forced to rely on them. It was also argued that the fact Brown had picked other players like Barry Nicholson, Gary Holt and Dougie Freedman who were still available to Vogts also shouldn't count in his favour because they weren't good enough to continue getting caps anyway. Those are both entirely reasonable arguments which I broadly agree with, but if you're going to hold them against Brown to defend Vogts, you have to judge Vogts by the same standard and look at the players he gave debuts to who were still featuring under Smith and McLeish. Lee McCulloch only got one cap under Vogts, and that was coming on as a sub in the 85th minute. Craig Gordon and Gary Caldwell each had four caps when Vogts left, Russell Anderson had five, Stephen Pearson had two, Garry O'Connor and Graeme Murty also had just one.

 

If you're holding Vogts to that same standard as we hold Brown to for bringing players through, then really the only players you can truly credit him for bringing through are Darren Fletcher (13 caps) and James McFadden (18 caps), as they were the only players he handed over with a decent amount of experience who were also good enough to keep their place in the squad. Bringing those two through is obviously a good thing, but at the same time it's hardly like he was plucking unknown youngsters from nowhere in a masterstroke no one saw coming: he'd have been getting howls of derision if he failed to pick McFadden or Fletcher regularly with the former tearing the SPL apart and the latter establishing himself as a first team regular at Manchester United.

 

Of course, you can reasonably argue that Vogts does deserve the credit for the likes of Gordon and Caldwell too, but if you do that then criticise Craig Brown for not passing enough young players over you're having your cake and eating it. The reality is that like every other argument in defence of Berti Vogts, the claim that McLeish's results were down to players Vogts brought through collapses under the slightest bit of scrutiny.

 

 

 

And the second one:

 

 

Having had a look at old squads for a post on the McLeish/Vogts debate in another thread, I wanted to revisit these points as well. I've only looked at competitive games for the purpose of removing Warren Cummings types who only played against Hong Kong and the like, so it gives a fair reflection of what Vogts was doing when he was trying to pick our best team rather than trying things out in friendlies when he may have been more interested in blooding players than the results.

 

These are the players who featured across Vogts' 13 competitive games in charge, with the number of competitive caps they won under him also listed and those who had been capped already under Brown in bold.

 

Gary Naysmith - 12

Barry Ferguson - 11

Stevie Crawford - 10

Jackie McNamara - 10

Rab Douglas - 9

Kenny Miller - 9

Christian Dailly - 8

Stephen Pressley - 8

Steven Thompson - 7

James McFadden - 7

Lee Wilkie - 6

Paul Lambert - 6

Colin Cameron - 6

Darren Fletcher - 6

Paul Dickov - 6

Maurice Ross - 5

Andy Webster - 5

Gavin Rae - 5

Graham Alexander - 4

Paul Devlin - 4

Neil McCann - 4

Don Hutchison - 4

Craig Gordon - 3

Gary Caldwell - 3

Gary Holt - 3

Russell Anderson - 2

Stephen Pearson - 2

Paul Gallacher - 1

Stephen Crainey - 1

Callum Davidson - 1

David Weir - 1

Malkkky Mackkkay - 1

Steven Caldwell - 1

Ian Murray - 1

Scott Severin - 1

Nigel Quashie - 1

Richard Hughes - 1

Allan Johnston - 1

Andy Gray - 1

Lee McCulloch - 1

Scott Dobie - 1

Kevin Kyle - 1

 

He used 42 players across those 13 games, giving 23 of them their debuts. Yes, that's a lot of debuts to give and there's no question that Brown left an ageing squad behind, but he used 19 players who had already been capped. Admittedly many of them had less than 10 caps, but there were 19 players available to him who already had some degree of international experience: that's not such a gigantic rebuild as you'd think he had on his hands with the way people go on about the work Brown left him to do.

 

The point craigkillie made about how many changes were made for that Faroes game is one often used in defence of Vogts and to criticise Brown, to show how many changes Vogts was forced to make due to the terrible hand Brown dealt him. Look at the starting XI that day:

 

 

 

Douglas

 

Ross - Weir - Dailly - Crainey

 

Dickov - Lambert - Ferguson - Johnston

 

Kyle - Dobie

 

 

 

It was IIRC supposed to interchange with a 4-3-3 with Dickov or Johnston pushing up when we were in possession, but it was a bit too much of a shambles to really tell.

 

Jackie McNamara, Callum Davidson and Gary Naysmith all had international caps before Vogts took over, all were available for that game and all of them were better full backs than the two who Vogts chose to start. Vogts wasn't forced into picking Crainey or Ross due to Craig Brown's negligence: he chose to throw untested, inferior players in over superior alternatives because he was a bad manager.

 

Neil McCann was a natural winger who'd had 13 caps under Brown, playing regularly and also scoring in the previous campaign so we had an experienced option on the wing available to Vogts in general, but he was unfortunately injured for that game. Not to worry, James McFadden was getting rave reviews and had established himself in the Motherwell first team, having scored double figures the season before. Vogts chose to leave him out of the squad while he put a centre forward on the wing. Vogts wasn't forced into putting Paul Dickov on the wing, he chose to play him out of position when he had real wingers available because he was a bad manager.

 

Kevin Kyle had at that point played 26 first team games in his career, scoring twice, both goals coming in a loan spell for fourth tier Darlington. Vogts had Stevie Crawford, Stevie Thompson and Kenny Miller available. Crawford was well proven in the Scottish top flight, Thompson had established himself in the Dundee Utd team and started that season well, eventually getting a move to Rangers that January, while Miller had already impressed at Hibs, got a move to Rangers then moved down to Wolves. Crawford and Miller both had international caps already, but he chose to use Kevin Kyle instead. He was not forced to use Kevin Kyle due to Craig Brown leaving him no options: he chose to use Kevin Kyle because he was a bad manager.

 

Berit Vogts wasn't forced into that starting eleven. He didn't have to give Kyle and Dobie their competitive debuts for a lack of alternatives, he didn't have to play Dickov on the wing, he certainly didn't have to put Crainey and Ross into the team. He chose to because he was a bad manager.

 

The list of players who won the most competitive caps under Vogts in the end is telling - the top eight had all won caps under Brown first. Admittedly in some cases that was just one cap under Brown, but these players had been around the international set-up already. Vogts could have gone with that core to the team from the start, but rather than being forced to blood players with no experience whatsoever from the start, he chose to do it differently. He had the option to pick McNamara and Naysmith straight away, but instead he chose to piss about with Maurice Ross and Stephen Crainey. He could have gone with Thompson, Crawford or Miller right away, but instead he chose to fling Kevin Kyle into the team. He had Neil McCann available but he chose to put centre forwards on the wing, with Gareth Williams as his only midfielder on the bench while Colin Cameron wasn't included in squads. The fact he later saw the error of his ways and had McCann and Cameron in the starting XI again is just further evidence that Vogts had it badly wrong at the start rather than being left with nothing by Brown; the players Brown had given caps to were the best available.

 

No one disputes that Craig Brown should have given more opportunities to young players. He should have had an eye on the future when our centre forwards were 32yo Billy Dodds and 30yo Don Hutchison. Tom Boyd and Matt Elliott were obviously coming to the end of their international careers and he should have had some idea of what defenders could step up to take theit places. However, the idea that this makes Craig Brown responsible for the garbage results of Berti Vogts just doesn't stand up to any kind of scrutiny.

 

Vogts still had the core of a squad there to work with and while he was forced to blood some youngsters, nobody forced him to pick shite ones. He corrected his errors of picking Kyle and Dobie, but persisted with Stevie Crawford over Kenny Miller. He continued to dick about with Paul Devlin while Shaun Maloney established himself in the Celtic team. He picked Maurice Ross more often than he picked Graham Alexander. Steven Caldwell. None of those decisions can be blamed on Craig Brown.

 

 

Brian Wake my Lord, Brian Wake

Brian Wake my Lord, Brian Wake

Brian Wake my Lord, Brian Wake

Oh Lord, Brian Wake

 

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There's far too many points in there to acknowledge them all, but I wouldn't say that people necessarily credit Vogts for the 2008 campaign; just that it's fair to acknowledge that he gave players a lot more playing time than other managers would have. The experience those players gained and the trust shown in them and the confidence he gave them certainly benefited us, so it'd be harsh not to doff your cap to Vogts on that one whether it was enforced or not.

 

Just as an example, we had Strachan playing 90 year old Shaun Maloney in a 2016 friendly and even with a failed and failing team didn't do a great deal to bring in new players, so it's not a given that a manager will give new players the time and space they deserve. I read somebody saying that it was harder to get out of his team than into it, which just about sums it up.

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Vogts job was to get us second and a playoff place behind germany he did that unlucky for us we got holland in the playoffs or i belive we would have qualified.

His results in friendly games was utter pish though.

Not only did he do that, he also managed to beat the Netherlands 1-0 at home, albeit with the second leg 6-0 capitulation in Amsterdam. If we weren't so rotten in the second leg we could have made it to Portugal.

 

As I said previously, I don't think he was a bad coach, but perhaps the wrong coach for us at the time. It was a poorly thought out appointment. I think that after his Germany job he went on a carpetbagging tour of collecting big cheques prior to his retirement.

Edited by capitanus

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Baws. There are a million different factors you can attribute to Scotland's failures before you get anywhere near Darren Fletcher. The issue for Fletcher was the Tartan Army mouth-breathers going 'plays fur Man Yoo he shid be daein mair'. A Fletcher-type player is never going to single-handedly win you games and was a far better midfielder than he ever got credit for.

I don't care if he plays for Man U or Cowdenbeath. He never made an impact for Scotland. You can't deny that.

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There's something intrinsically Scottish about bemoaning the performances of a top class player for not doing enough, rather than questioning why there wasn't more quality round about him. 

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There's something intrinsically Scottish about bemoaning the performances of a top class player for not doing enough, rather than questioning why there wasn't more quality round about him.

Indeed. The friendly against Northern Ireland a few years ago always sticks out as the best/worst example of that, we were totally devoid of any kind of attacking strategy, no movement at all in front of the ball. Fletcher was constantly dropping back to take the ball, looking up and getting absolutely no options and ended up having to go backwards and sideways and got pelters for it whilst every other attacking player stood spectating.

 

Fletcher is neither the root nor the epitome of our failings.

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Pish. Players of lesser ability have made a bigger impact in shite Scotland teams. He probably did need better players around him though so he was better off not being selected in that case. I'm glad he's out the picture now and no glossing over of his Scotland career can change that.

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