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Strict Liability


capitanus

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This is a topical subject at the moment, with incidents involving both the OF clubs, but also a number of other clubs too, ourselves included.

 

What is everyone's thoughts on this?

 

For what it's worth, I think that the crowd control the other night against Falkirk was abysmal, for what was possibly the biggest Category A match in our division not to have any police on duty in the ground should be reprehensible in itself, also looking at the physical condition of some of those who were 'stewards' at Cappielow left a lot to be desired too - including a middle-aged woman hobbling about as though she needed a hip replacement - how could they be expected to restore order if two groups of 30+ casuals decided to have it on when the pitch was invaded after their goal? or if there was a surge and crush situation inside the ground?

 

There is penny pinching and cost cutting, but the safety of the spectators inside the ground must be of paramount importance, that is the wrong place to be making cutbacks.

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The clubs should stop being absolute shitebags and enforce strict liability: starting with stand and stadium closures before moving on to point deductions. Until then though we should bring back the Offensive Behaviour at Football Act: a law that was repealed without being replaced by a credible alternative by bigot-pandering politicians (see Kelly, James) and their gormless, bearded, lentil-munching allies in the Green Party. That idiotic move has predictably signaled to every knuckle-dragger in the country that they've got free rein now to do whatever they want. 

 

Funnily enough you don't hear much from those politicians about that great curb on the big, bad Scottish Govenrment now that cases of hooliganism of every stripe have gone through the roof. 

The site is supposed to be a place for the extended 'family' of Morton supporters - having an affinity with people that you don't know, because you share a love of your local football club. It's not supposed to be about point scoring and showing how 'clever' or 'funny' you are, or just being downright rude and offensive to people you don't know, because you can get away with it. Unfortunately, it seems the classic case of people who have little standing/presence in real life, use this forum as a way of making themselves feel as if they are something. It's sad, and I've said that before..

 

So, having been on Morton forums for about 15 years I guess, I've had enough... well done t*ssers, another Morton supporter driven away. You can all feel happy at how 'clever' you are

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The Offensive Behaviour at Football Act when introduced did not make criminal any act that was not already and similarly its repeal did not make legal anything that had been hitherto illegal.

 

Strict liability in principle is a good idea but in practice difficult to apply.

 

Would the pitch invasion by the Falkirk fans lead to a fine on their club for their behaviour or on us because the ground stewarding was in the event inadequate?

 

The fact that it would be complex to apply doesn't mean that it shouldn't be introduced but very clear criteria would require to be agreed and made clear to all parties.

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Secterianism is a social problem and people who think it only exists in football are 'gormless' idiots.

 

The OBFA was specifically aimed at criminalising Working Class folk and only succeeded in tackling sectarianism by being so reviled that it united fans of all creeds in opposition to it.

 

Frankly, banning singing at football games but allowing Orange Marches past Churches ain't going to solve a jot. Secterianism is society's problem and whilst I would welcome strict liability, there is a tonne more to be done. Middle Class people are secterian too, they just don't sing about it at the football.

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Also -

 

Rangers and Celtic profit from the bigotry. Celtic can bring out tops with tricolours and crosses on them and Rangers can have union flag and orange tops and make a killing. They don't want it to stop because its what keeps their clubs in the positions they are in. If bigotry was gone so would large swathes of the Old Firm (and Hearts/Hibs) supporters. If the religious aspect was lost then why would non-weegie people find reasons to sink their cash into bigoted institutions?

 

It ain't going to go away because too many powerful people profit from it.***

 

***this includes politicians etc. who use it to gain support or - in Ireland's case- the Gvt who use it to divide and rule.

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Also -

Rangers and Celtic profit from the bigotry. Celtic can bring out tops with tricolours and crosses on them and Rangers can have union flag and orange tops and make a killing. They don't want it to stop because its what keeps their clubs in the positions they are in. If bigotry was gone so would large swathes of the Old Firm (and Hearts/Hibs) supporters. If the religious aspect was lost then why would non-weegie people find reasons to sink their cash into bigoted institutions?

It ain't going to go away because too many powerful people profit from it.***

***this includes politicians etc. who use it to gain support or - in Ireland's case- the Gvt who use it to divide and rule.

A crucifix is not a symbol of bigotry, but an ecumenical sign of Christianity. The respective flags of the UK and the Republic of Ireland are also not symbols of bigotry either.

 

The term 'Weegie' can be construed as bigoted, as it is a pejorative term used for Glaswegians, normally from people residing in rural parts of Scotland who have an anti-Glasgow chip on their shoulder.

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Morton invested heavily In their CCTV following the appointment of the ex copper as the head of security.

 

I'm sure they'll be working to identify the falkikr fans who managed to make it over to the shed to stick two's up to the Morton fans.... (they probably won't because it's a different rule for away fans at cappjelow)

 

The stewards at cappielow are about as useful as a chocolate fire guard. Not once have I seen them attempt to remove pitch Invaders, either frkm the pitch or from the stadium as a result of being on the pitch. In fact, they were taking pictures of the Falkirk fans at their request.

 

Suspect we're paying the head of a security a nice packet, and the Investment of cameras won't have been cheap. Start using it effectively on the entirely support (home and away) and not just home fans.

TIME FOR CHANGE!

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This is a topical subject at the moment, with incidents involving both the OF clubs, but also a number of other clubs too, ourselves included.

 

What is everyone's thoughts on this?

 

For what it's worth, I think that the crowd control the other night against Falkirk was abysmal, for what was possibly the biggest Category A match in our division not to have any police on duty in the ground should be reprehensible in itself, also looking at the physical condition of some of those who were 'stewards' at Cappielow left a lot to be desired too - including a middle-aged woman hobbling about as though she needed a hip replacement - how could they be expected to restore order if two groups of 30+ casuals decided to have it on when the pitch was invaded after their goal? or if there was a surge and crush situation inside the ground?

 

There is penny pinching and cost cutting, but the safety of the spectators inside the ground must be of paramount importance, that is the wrong place to be making cutbacks.

 

Indeed. Everybody knows Morton v Falkirk is a bit of a grudge match these days, to have no police there at all is extremely poor - at the very least, when their supporters went on the pitch after their goal it should have set alarm bells ringing. I couldn't help wondering what might have happened if they had scored a last minute winner, even if it didn't spill over into a full-on brawl (which was unlikely, in fairness) there's no way the stewards were going to deal with it considering their mutants were giving it the big 'un about a mere equaliser. For there to be no police presence outside is unacceptable though, especially when they can mount "operations" to confiscate a few half bottles off of buses.

 

 

As for the OBFA, it was clearly cack-handed in its creation and in its implementation, but much of the reaction to it was wildly hysterical too including the notion that it was implemented with the specifc intention to "criminalise the working classes". Of course it wasn't.

 

The repealing of it leaves a far worse taste than the Act itself did though. There clearly IS a problem with football matches than doesn't exist elsewhere, and any moves to repeal the OBFA should have went hand-in-hand with a serious effort to find another solution with all parties on board. By refusing to engage in any kind of alternative whilst enthusiastically pandering to every arsehole in the country, the likes of James Kelly sent out a terrible message and tactictly condoned all sorts of s***e.

 

There's no doubt that policing at games can be a bit "over-zealous" (to be kind) and that needs to be addressed, but at the same time too many people seem to think they can behave however they please with no recourse just because they're at a game

 

Just as an example, I was at the Scottish Cup final last year and ended up down at the very front row of the Motherwell end where some of the stuff going on was dismal, fully grown adults squaring up to stewards and screaming all sorts of abuse in their faces for simply asking them, politely and entirely reasonably not to stand in the aisles etc. There's worse things that go on, of course, but when people think that kind of thing's acceptable then it's time to admit that fans as a whole need to get a grip of themselves. Nobody's saying you should go to a game and stand in silence, but there really isn't any need to be as much of an arsehole about it and when coins and bottles start flying on a regular basis then you need to say enough is enough.

 

If supporters, collectively, aren't going to acknowledge there's a problem and find ways to improve the situation along with their clubs, then the only solution is to impose strict liability.

AWMSC

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A crucifix is not a symbol of bigotry, but an ecumenical sign of Christianity. The respective flags of the UK and the Republic of Ireland are also not symbols of bigotry either.

 

The term 'Weegie' can be construed as bigoted, as it is a pejorative term used for Glaswegians, normally from people residing in rural parts of Scotland who have an anti-Glasgow chip on their shoulder.

Religion has no place on a football top. Besides, it was the Celtic Cross I was referring to not a Crucifix.

 

Also - re flags - obviously in their simplest form they aren't bigoted. But they were used to cash in on the bigoted connotations that they hold. Now, I have stated before that I think Rangers are worse than Celtic - and considerably so. But neither club has any interest in ending this and both will continue to perpetuate the attitudes which reinforce these behaviours.

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A crucifix is not a symbol of bigotry, but an ecumenical sign of Christianity. The respective flags of the UK and the Republic of Ireland are also not symbols of bigotry either.

 

The term 'Weegie' can be construed as bigoted, as it is a pejorative term used for Glaswegians, normally from people residing in rural parts of Scotland who have an anti-Glasgow chip on their shoulder.

Also, I just couldn't be bothered writing Glasweigans. I don't think any people from Glasgow are going to be offended by a Greenockian saying weegie

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The moment you take a side, you become part of the problem.

Not taking a side nor interested in whatabboutery. But to properly tackle the problem you have to have a full understanding of it's severity, nature and history.

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Secterianism is a social problem and people who think it only exists in football are 'gormless' idiots.

 

The OBFA was specifically aimed at criminalising Working Class folk and only succeeded in tackling sectarianism by being so reviled that it united fans of all creeds in opposition to it.

 

Frankly, banning singing at football games but allowing Orange Marches past Churches ain't going to solve a jot. Secterianism is society's problem and whilst I would welcome strict liability, there is a tonne more to be done. Middle Class people are secterian too, they just don't sing about it at the football.

 

This is utter nonsense. It's not the 1950s anymore, so the idea that an act targeting hooliganism at football was an attack on the working-class, salt of the earth, just out the yards workers is laughable to say the least. And by the same token, sectarianism is simply no longer a significant social problem in Scotland as it was back then; the only remaining holdouts of sectarian behaviour in Scottish life are in fact the aforementioned marches and football matches.

 

And the OBFA received overwhelming support from Scottish public opinion for that reason - as tackling both sectarianism and hooliganism at Scottish football matches is far more of a priority for the Scottish Government and the people who elect it than it has ever been for Scottish football clubs. No amount of whataboutery regarding Orange marches is going to the trick for them. 

The site is supposed to be a place for the extended 'family' of Morton supporters - having an affinity with people that you don't know, because you share a love of your local football club. It's not supposed to be about point scoring and showing how 'clever' or 'funny' you are, or just being downright rude and offensive to people you don't know, because you can get away with it. Unfortunately, it seems the classic case of people who have little standing/presence in real life, use this forum as a way of making themselves feel as if they are something. It's sad, and I've said that before..

 

So, having been on Morton forums for about 15 years I guess, I've had enough... well done t*ssers, another Morton supporter driven away. You can all feel happy at how 'clever' you are

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The Offensive Behaviour at Football Act when introduced did not make criminal any act that was not already and similarly its repeal did not make legal anything that had been hitherto illegal.

 

 

There are all sorts of behaviour that could have been prosecuted under existing law (as Breach of the Peace in particular serves a catch-all offence) but we've still passed new and specific laws on top of that: including specific hate crime laws against race (1993), religion (2003), disability and sexual orientation (2009). OBFA is simply a stand alone addition to the existing set of laws to further refine what can and should be prosecuted, including sectarian behaviour and general hooliganism at football matches: 

 

https://www2.gov.scot/Topics/archive/Hate-Crime-Legislation/current-legislation

 

Repealing OBFA sent a very clear signal: that football matches would no longer be viewed as a focal point for bampot behaviour of the highest order and so - as could be entirely predicted - incidents of sectarian chanting, coin and bottle throwing among others have gone through the roof in the period since. Which is why we don't listen to idiots like James Kelly and five-minute political philosophers like Ross ****ing Greer and toss out race hate legislation for the same  reasons. 

 

Strict liability in principle is a good idea but in practice difficult to apply.

Would the pitch invasion by the Falkirk fans lead to a fine on their club for their behaviour or on us because the ground stewarding was in the event inadequate?

 

The fact that it would be complex to apply doesn't mean that it shouldn't be introduced but very clear criteria would require to be agreed and made clear to all parties.

 

 

The Advisory Group on Tackling Sectarianism in Scotland gave this recommendation back in 2013:

 

We also believe that sporting sanctions should be introduced and applied to clubs where sectarianism persists. We recommend that Scottish football‟s governing bodies introduce a system of penalties for football clubs along the lines of the UEFA (Union of European Football Associations) anti-racism guidelines (paragraph 6.73.6). 

 

 

That punishment system could be just as easily extended to acts of hooliganism by football fans, with an emphasis on punishing the perpetrators but also with the option of hauling host clubs over the coals if their security measures turned out to be completely useless for a public spectacle. 

The site is supposed to be a place for the extended 'family' of Morton supporters - having an affinity with people that you don't know, because you share a love of your local football club. It's not supposed to be about point scoring and showing how 'clever' or 'funny' you are, or just being downright rude and offensive to people you don't know, because you can get away with it. Unfortunately, it seems the classic case of people who have little standing/presence in real life, use this forum as a way of making themselves feel as if they are something. It's sad, and I've said that before..

 

So, having been on Morton forums for about 15 years I guess, I've had enough... well done t*ssers, another Morton supporter driven away. You can all feel happy at how 'clever' you are

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This is utter nonsense. It's not the 1950s anymore, so the idea that an act targeting hooliganism at football was an attack on the working-class, salt of the earth, just out the yards workers is laughable to say the least. And by the same token, sectarianism is simply no longer a significant social problem in Scotland as it was back then; the only remaining holdouts of sectarian behaviour in Scottish life are in fact the aforementioned marches and football matches.

 

And the OBFA received overwhelming support from Scottish public opinion for that reason - as tackling both sectarianism and hooliganism at Scottish football matches is far more of a priority for the Scottish Government and the people who elect it than it has ever been for Scottish football clubs. No amount of whataboutery regarding Orange marches is going to the trick for them.

Lol, just because Working Class people don't work in shipyards now doesn't mean they don't exist.

 

Frankly, if you think sectarianism doesn't exist any more outside marches and football then you are just lucky you don't need to deal with it. Was the Labour Conference Chair not making digs at Catholics last year? My god only yesterday an SNP Councillor apparently called anti-cuts campaigners 'labour-controlled f***ans' in Dundee. Sectarianism and the anti-Irish bigotry that goes with it have infected our entire society. Any Act which actually wants to tackle the problem would be far more wide-ranging than simply targetting football fans (although it should 100% encompass football).

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Lol, just because Working Class people don't work in shipyards now doesn't mean they don't exist.

 

 

If people wanted to attack the working classes then they could find far better targets than predominantly top-flight Scottish football matches priced at £25 a ticket and upwards. 

 

Frankly, if you think sectarianism doesn't exist any more outside marches and football then you are just lucky you don't need to deal with it. Was the Labour Conference Chair not making digs at Catholics last year? My god only yesterday an SNP Councillor apparently called anti-cuts campaigners 'labour-controlled f***ans' in Dundee. Sectarianism and the anti-Irish bigotry that goes with it have infected our entire society.

 

 

No, this is nonsense. As shown by the expert investigation conducted in 2015 by the Independent Advisory Group on Tackling Sectarianism, which found that :

 

• A very substantial body of evidence consistently corroborates the evident perception in Scotland that ‘sectarianism’ (however defined) is widespread and worrisome. There is, though, rather less clear evidence about its actual form, character and extent. This ‘gap’ was amongst the key conclusions of Scottish Government reviews of evidence in 2005, 2013 and 2015 we wish to emphasise the importance of this finding.
 
• Whilst sectarianism is a problem in ‘pockets’ of Scottish life, there is limited robust evidence of structural disadvantage between key religious groups.
 
• It is clear that many people in Scotland live their lives untouched by sectarianism, or have the means to avoid it. Nevertheless, there is clear evidence that a minority of Scots report having been victims of sectarianism historically and recently and such experiences are not restricted to any particular religious or ethnic community.
 
• There are consistent patterns to beliefs about the seriousness and extent of sectarianism, as well as to what contributes to its continued existence.
 
• There is considerable evidence of social integration between Protestants and Catholics in Scotland.
 
• There is little evidence of sectarianism at the heart of Scottish politics.
 
• It is clear that there remain some key areas in which we lack robust knowledge about the nature and extent of sectarianism.

 

 

Tl; dr version - while there are plenty of people and interest groups who believe that sectarianism prevails throughout Scottish society, there is very little hard evidence of sectarianism outside of marches and football. A point that has also been made in the past few days by the preeminent historian of Scottish society Sir Tom Devine:
 
 
I'd recommend checking out his interview on Monday's Scotland Tonight for his full debunking of this myth. 

 

Any Act which actually wants to tackle the problem would be far more wide-ranging than simply targetting football fans (although it should 100% encompass football).

 

 

The aim of the Offensive Behaviour at Football Act is as the title suggests: prosecuting people for acting like scumbags - such as singing sectarian chants inside a football ground while huddling behind the weasel words of 'free speech' or sending death threats and nail bombs to people after the outcome of a football match on the basis of sectarian hatred. Problems that were and remain unique to football matches and simply do not occur in everyday Scottish society.

 

Tackling the specific problem of sectarian behaviour in Scottish football still leaves the police, government and community groups free to tackle wider sectarian attitudes outside of a football ground with whatever measures they want, so your argument that they don't really want to tackle the problem by passing the OBFA is, quite frankly, utter bollocks. 

The site is supposed to be a place for the extended 'family' of Morton supporters - having an affinity with people that you don't know, because you share a love of your local football club. It's not supposed to be about point scoring and showing how 'clever' or 'funny' you are, or just being downright rude and offensive to people you don't know, because you can get away with it. Unfortunately, it seems the classic case of people who have little standing/presence in real life, use this forum as a way of making themselves feel as if they are something. It's sad, and I've said that before..

 

So, having been on Morton forums for about 15 years I guess, I've had enough... well done t*ssers, another Morton supporter driven away. You can all feel happy at how 'clever' you are

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If people wanted to attack the working classes then they could find far better targets than predominantly top-flight Scottish football matches priced at £25 a ticket and upwards.

 

 

No, this is nonsense. As shown by the expert investigation conducted in 2015 by the Independent Advisory Group on Tackling Sectarianism, which found that :

 

 

 

Tl; dr version - while there are plenty of people and interest groups who believe that sectarianism prevails throughout Scottish society, there is very little hard evidence of sectarianism outside of marches and football. A point that has also been made in the past few days by the preeminent historian of Scottish society Sir Tom Devine:

 

https://www.glasgowsociology.com/in-conversation/eminent-scottish-history-professor-tom-devine-attacks-anti-sectarianism-industry-and-calls-for-qualitative-research-to-inform-policy/

 

I'd recommend checking out his interview on Monday's Scotland Tonight for his full debunking of this myth.

 

 

The aim of the Offensive Behaviour at Football Act is as the title suggests: prosecuting people for acting like scumbags - such as singing sectarian chants inside a football ground while huddling behind the weasel words of 'free speech' or sending death threats and nail bombs to people after the outcome of a football match on the basis of sectarian hatred. Problems that were and remain unique to football matches and simply do not occur in everyday Scottish society.

 

Tackling the specific problem of sectarian behaviour in Scottish football still leaves the police, government and community groups free to tackle wider sectarian attitudes outside of a football ground with whatever measures they want, so your argument that they don't really want to tackle the problem by passing the OBFA is, quite frankly, utter bollocks.

Conveniently bypass two examples of elected politicians being involved in secterianism - didn't bother including the droves of examples from Tories because I don't imagine you are one of them. It benefits politicians and civil society to say that secterianism is football's problem.

 

We are just going to go in circles, I don't agree with you and you probably think I am a 'gormless' idiot who can't compete with your fact based analysis.

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Also, I just couldn't be bothered writing Glasweigans. I don't think any people from Glasgow are going to be offended by a Greenockian saying weegie

Black people aren’t going to be offended by a half caste saying *racial slur removed*.
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