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#1 cmdc

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Posted 18 June 2018 - 10:06 PM

What an evil fucking bastard.



#2 capitanus

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Posted 18 June 2018 - 10:14 PM

What has he done now?
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#3 TaunTon

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Posted 18 June 2018 - 10:28 PM

You may think it shocking. heartless and immoral, but it's exactly what a large section of the american public want to see and no-one should be surprised.



#4 cmdc

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Posted 18 June 2018 - 10:33 PM

You may think it shocking. heartless and immoral, but it's exactly what a large section of the american public want to see and no-one should be surprised.


Some of the visual and audio stuff coming out of the past few days has genuinely (literally!) taken my breath away. It’s absolutely heart breaking.

#5 TRVMP

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Posted 18 June 2018 - 10:39 PM

Some of the visual and audio stuff coming out of the past few days has genuinely (literally!) taken my breath away. It’s absolutely heart breaking.

 

If only this could somehow have been avoided!

I realize I'm in the minority on here (and in the world, and in the US) but I have very limited sympathy for the parents of those children, who have chosen to engage in people-trafficking. I have even less sympathy for such parents who aren't Mexican, but have crossed safe Mexican territory from a third country such as El Salvador or Guatemala, because they want money. For the children, of course one feels sorry - how could you not? - but the solution to their plight doesn't end in the US opening its borders. It ends with Mexico and the US co-operating on the vicious people-trafficking industry, and Central American society trying to fix its jaw-dropping rate of crime, corruption, and economic disparity. Nobody on the open borders side seems the least bit interested in fixing these root causes, though, hence the election of Trump.

 

It should also be noted that unaccompanied minors flooded into the country under the last administration, and a very decent percentage disappeared into the underworld of sex trafficking. Now, the separation of children - upsetting though it is - takes place only with children who are being trafficked across the border illegally by their parents, pimps, or others. For those crossing at ports of entry (the technical term for a US border crossing) as a family, they are kept together during application for asylum, for example. That nuance has largely been lost in the outrage, but I understand perfectly well that the bureaucratic way of approaching it is going to upset a lot of people. But that's fine - any given policy anyone supports comes with tradeoffs. People who want open borders for anyone who shows up at the Rio Grande need to acknowledge the problems arising; people like me who support the current policy need to accept the fact that kids are going to be hurt by this and, knowing the condition of some of our other detention facilities, it is absolutely inevitable that some will end up physically and sexually abused, possibly by other kids and even the guards/staff/teachers. It's an uncomfortable thing to confront, but the alternative is an order of magnitude worse. We simply need to show that the trafficking of children is completely unacceptable. Do it across state lines within the US and you'll be jailed. Why would the border be any different?


Now before Gavin goes, I'd like to ask him one more question.


Do you like Abba?


#6 TaunTon

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Posted 18 June 2018 - 10:43 PM

Some of the visual and audio stuff coming out of the past few days has genuinely (literally!) taken my breath away. It’s absolutely heart breaking.

 

I understand that and broadly agree but he has been given a mandate by enough americans to win an election and I'm sure a significant proportion of his base will see him as being a bit liberal for not instructing the national guard to shoot illegals on sight.



#7 TRVMP

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Posted 18 June 2018 - 10:45 PM

I understand that and broadly agree but he has been given a mandate by enough americans to win an election and I'm sure a significant proportion of his base will see him as being a bit liberal for not instructing the national guard to shoot illegals on sight.

 

What do you think should happen when a family is detained crossing the US border illegally, far from any port of entry?


Now before Gavin goes, I'd like to ask him one more question.


Do you like Abba?


#8 TaunTon

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Posted 18 June 2018 - 10:52 PM

I think I would want to establish within reason that they were genuine refugees and therefore detain them in their family group. If however they are simply economic migrants I would have no hesitation in deporting them back to their country of origin.



#9 TRVMP

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Posted 18 June 2018 - 10:54 PM

I think I would want to establish within reason that they were genuine refugees and therefore detain them in their family group. If however they are simply economic migrants I would have no hesitation in deporting them back to their country of origin.

 

If they are applying for asylum they should do so at a port of entry, of which dozens are strewn across the US-Mexico border, and they are significantly easier to get to than illegal crossings for reasons that are, I hope, obvious. If a family crosses legally at a US port of entry and declares they are applying for the right of asylum, they will be kept together during the appeals process. (The US government is actually significantly more liberal about this than you are - deportation is a very thorough process here and even those who fail asylum are often given permission to stay.) Your view is that the entire border should be treated the same as a port of entry?


Now before Gavin goes, I'd like to ask him one more question.


Do you like Abba?


#10 TaunTon

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Posted 18 June 2018 - 11:01 PM

If they are applying for asylum they should do so at a port of entry, of which dozens are strewn across the US-Mexico border, and they are significantly easier to get to than illegal crossings for reasons that are, I hope, obvious. If a family crosses legally at a US port of entry and declares they are applying for the right of asylum, they will be kept together during the appeals process. (The US government is actually significantly more liberal about this than you are - deportation is a very thorough process here and even those who fail asylum are often given permission to stay.) Your view is that the entire border should be treated the same as a port of entry?

 

Largely correct. My 'inhumanity' only goes so far  ;)



#11 TRVMP

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Posted 18 June 2018 - 11:15 PM

Largely correct. My 'inhumanity' only goes so far  ;)

 

That's utterly mental. Ports of entry are secure, well-lit, equipped with water, many with AC, many open 24/7. There are armed, professional staff at each of them. To cross the border elsewhere is often deadly - especially as summer approaches. It's already well over 35 C here at the heat of the day and it'll be worse at the border. The coyotes who are paid thousands of dollars to navigate people acros this pitiless environment often have ties to drug cartels (who de facto control some illegal crossings) and even those who don't will sometimes, depending on where they are operating in Mexico, cross paths with them. They will often for reasons of self-preservation either fall in with them or accede to their demands, and I'll let you fill in the blanks there.

 

I'm not trying to do either of these things:

 

1) Paint myself as a paragon of virtue. It's no secret that the US' territorial integrity is my main concern. I'm not cutting up onions for illegal immigrants

2) Paint you as a villain, because I think you're approaching this from ignorance and not malice

 

But anything that encourages border crossings away from ports of entry is deadly in the most literal sense. If your view - which is quite moderate - is that the US is permitted to judge asylum applicaitons on their merits, you should logically be fervently against illegal crossings because they empower coyotes and cartels (when they're not one and the same) and take place in conditions that can turn lethal extremely quickly - and the legal alternative is available without family separation.

 

This shouldn't be read as me tryign to convince you anything about family separation, which hits people on a visceral level.


Edited by TRVMP, 18 June 2018 - 11:18 PM.

Now before Gavin goes, I'd like to ask him one more question.


Do you like Abba?


#12 TaunTon

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Posted 18 June 2018 - 11:37 PM

I fully understand your line here and can agree with your logic on ports of entry but I seriously doubt that separating children from parents is going to solve anything (other than punishing both children and parents which is probably the intention). Either way both parents and children are being detained so why not keep them together? I can only assume that their reluctance to go through the lawful procedure is a desperate attempt to avoid detention.of any sort.

 

As for the criminal gangs I'm sure that many americans are ultimately supporting them financially due to their unending appetite for drugs. but that's for another late night.



#13 TRVMP

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Posted 18 June 2018 - 11:57 PM

Everything I have talked about in my previous posts about those seeking asylum results in no family separation. If a family enters at a port of entry and declares asylum they are kept together during the appeals process. This has been the case for as long as I've been interested in this subject, which is a few years now. So let's draw a line under that.

 

------

 

Literally.

 

Moving on: I understand completely your "why subject them to this cruelty of separation if they're already together" and that's why I'm not so much seeking to convince here. I understand it's visceral. But for me, as someone who supports the policy, here is my reasoning:
 
1) We already separate people from their kids when they commit crimes. If you drive while drunk you go to jail. If you rob a bank you go to jail. Your kids don't come with you. Now, you might say (and it's a very fair argument) that this is punitive, and you prefer restorative/reparative justice. That's a fine point of view. But for me we need to strongly deter this behavior, because...
2) ... we are now 30+ years into "why don't we just" thinking and it's ended in ludicrous situations such as California's, where on the one hand the gifted illegals receive preferential access to many state colleges and other institutions, while the massive helot class wasting away in the fields without papers receives very little. It's a hugely imbalanced system but focus just on the former example, not the latter: if you incentivize such behavior it results in more of it happening. Many of us in the US believe from looking at the borderlands, agricultural districts and major cities that illegal immigration is a humanitarian disaster and needs to stop. This is a blunt instrument in doing so.
 
Some may respond with, well, these are detention facilities, no matter how brightly colored the blankets are - kids will fight, there will be physical abuse, and some sickos will even sexually abuse kids there. To this I say, yep, they will, and it's horrific. But all of these things also occur on the migrant trail (Amnesty estimates a MAJORITY of women and girls traveling through Mexico from Central America are sexually abused) and it is a semi-regular occurrence for lorries full of suffocated illegals to be prised open in the border towns. The whole immigration-narco-industrial complex inevitably ends with corpses along the Rio Grande, and it needs to be dismantled. Each side has to ask itself what its conscience can stand. Me, personally, I can't stand a system that both endangers and divides my own community AND is monstrously cruel to the people who use it. Others may say that I'm inhuman, and that I'm defending a system that doesn't permit Central Americans and others to flee danger for a better life, and the gangs of San Pedro Sula are sufficient reason for open access to the US. Again, I don't expect to change anyone's mind in this.
 
On the drugs thing: I hear this semi-regularly from a certain type of European, and I always ask them the same thing:
 
Is there another population in the world on whom you would blame the narcotics trade? Were the Chinese to blame for the opium epidemic of the 1800s, for example? Do you not see the violence inherent in the industry, from the production to the trafficking to the retail? And the addictive capacity of most narcotics, you're not aware of this, not aware of the old cliche of 'the first hit's always free' - it's just got to be another dig at the fat stupid Yanks?
 
Do you understand the stakes of the cartels? Do you understand how ruthlessly they operate and how hard they push their product? Do you understand that children are being compelled to sell to their classmates as young as middle school by parents who are in turn being extorted by cartels? You can call these cases outliers - they are, but I'm telling you that they happen.
 
Do you want to know what cartel members film and trade amongst themselves? I'm not even going to post it, but if you want a PM let me know.
 
You don't need to tell me there are feckless wasters who just worry about their next bong hit, or guys in suits who can't do without their cocaine at the weekend, but the opiate trade in particular is inherently predatory. And that's not just the cartels, too, it's the major pharma companies who are complicit in it. And it's monstrous, and it's something else that we need to dismantle both within the US and out. And if we were talking about literally anyone else except Americans you would agree with me, I guarantee it.

Now before Gavin goes, I'd like to ask him one more question.


Do you like Abba?


#14 dunning1874

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Posted 19 June 2018 - 06:53 AM

Everything I have talked about in my previous posts about those seeking asylum results in no family separation. If a family enters at a port of entry and declares asylum they are kept together during the appeals process. This has been the case for as long as I've been interested in this subject, which is a few years now. So let's draw a line under that.


What's your view on reports that Border agents along the Texas-Mexico border are refusing access to legal ports of entry, leaving even those with a valid asylum claim with the choices of turning back or attempting to cross illegally?

Brian Wake my Lord, Brian Wake

Brian Wake my Lord, Brian Wake

Brian Wake my Lord, Brian Wake

Oh Lord, Brian Wake


#15 TRVMP

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Posted 19 June 2018 - 12:39 PM

What's your view on reports that Border agents along the Texas-Mexico border are refusing access to legal ports of entry, leaving even those with a valid asylum claim with the choices of turning back or attempting to cross illegally?


Unsurprising that it's happening in a few, largely unverified cases, but it's certainly not policy. The US is very good at letting in people claiming asylum, who then either succeed in their application or disappear into the barrio. It's absolutely not the case that they're turned away regularly.

Now before Gavin goes, I'd like to ask him one more question.


Do you like Abba?


#16 TONofmemories

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Posted 20 June 2018 - 11:31 AM

https://twitter.com/...046679079849984


TIME FOR CHANGE!


#17 capitanus

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Posted 20 June 2018 - 10:43 PM

What an evil ****ing bastard.


Isn't it strange how nobody seems to call Putin an 'evil fucking bastard', at least on here anyway?

Edited by capitanus, 20 June 2018 - 10:44 PM.

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#18 capitanus

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Posted 21 June 2018 - 12:23 AM

https://twitter.com/...046679079849984


The Evening Standard is majority owned by the Lebedev family, headed up by former KGB agent Alexander Lebedev, so perhaps it's not the most unbiased of UK media platforms.
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#19 cmdc

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Posted 21 June 2018 - 09:05 AM

Isn't it strange how nobody seems to call Putin an 'evil ****ing bastard', at least on here anyway?


I’m not sure how relevant Putin is to US immigration policy. Unless...

#20 TaunTon

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Posted 21 June 2018 - 09:23 AM

Isn't it strange how nobody seems to call Putin an 'evil ****ing bastard', at least on here anyway?

 

It's almost a given that a Russian wanabe dictator is ikely to be an evil cunt.