Educational Standards

[Tonsilitis]

I see that English school leavers have amongst the worst literacy and numeracy standards in the Western world. Does anyone know where we rank in relation to them?

 

I suspect we are not much better and I came across a pretty normal appearing 14/15 year old the other day who could not add 50 + 23 in his head. I also see a lot a job applications and the spelling and grammar is often appalling.

[shaddypeekey]

I see that English school leavers have amongst the worst literacy and numeracy standards in the Western world. Does anyone know where we rank in relation to them?

 

I suspect we are not much better and I came across a pretty normal appearing 14/15 year old the other day who could not add 50 + 23 in his head. I also see a lot a job applications and the spelling and grammar is often appalling.

 

We urr pure brillyint.

[HamCam]

I see that English school leavers have amongst the worst literacy and numeracy standards in the Western world. Does anyone know where we rank in relation to them?

 

I suspect we are not much better and I came across a pretty normal appearing 14/15 year old the other day who could not add 50 + 23 in his head. I also see a lot a job applications and the spelling and grammar is often appalling.

I blame kafflic skools an Alan Moore

[shaddypeekey]

I blame kafflic skools an Alan Moore

Kafflick skools wur peur dead guid. I learned all about katekisms and priest stuff. them proddys only done sums anat.

[Colkitto]

I see that English school leavers have amongst the worst literacy and numeracy standards in the Western world. Does anyone know where we rank in relation to them?

 

I suspect we are not much better and I came across a pretty normal appearing 14/15 year old the other day who could not add 50 + 23 in his head. I also see a lot a job applications and the spelling and grammar is often appalling.

 

 

We didn't enter as we already had a survey done in 2009.

[Bryan]

I see that English school leavers have amongst the worst literacy and numeracy standards in the Western world. Does anyone know where we rank in relation to them?

 

I suspect we are not much better and I came across a pretty normal appearing 14/15 year old the other day who could not add 50 + 23 in his head. I also see a lot a job applications and the spelling and grammar is often appalling.

That's a bit of stereotyping there I know many a intelligent youngster

[chrissiboi]

That's a bit of stereotyping there I know many a intelligent youngster

How many older people are computer literate or can text, the world is moving on and the bastions of literacy are philistines in not recognising the evolvement of language is a given. I bet when the King James bible was printed the academics were predicting the end of civilisation. Shorthand anyone ?

 

What is evident is the generation that strived to be different are firmly cemented into the establishment.

[Guest David Edwards]

What is evident is the generation that strived to be different are firmly cemented into the establishment.

 

There's nothing new under the sun, every new generation strives to be different from the last yet inevitably they fail. We become much like our parents even though we're sometimes loathe to admit it. But 'firmly cemented in the establishment'? Not all of us chrissiboi, not all of us.

[Alibi]

How many older people are computer literate or can text, the world is moving on and the bastions of literacy are philistines in not recognising the evolvement of language is a given. I bet when the King James bible was printed the academics were predicting the end of civilisation. Shorthand anyone ?

 

What is evident is the generation that strived to be different are firmly cemented into the establishment.

 

Many of us. Some of us can even spell, and have a reasonable grasp of grammar. The problem is that spelling and grammar are pretty much ignored in schools nowadays. One reason is that there are subjects now that didn't even exist 20, 30, 40 years ago. another reason is that many people never read books - if you don't read, how are you going to learn?

 

Technology is to some extent replacing the need to remember things - spellcheckers can correct some errors but they don't recognise context (your v You're, their v there). Technology often seems to have got out of hand - some cars now have devices to shake your seat if you move out of your lane without indicating - is that really a good thing? Technology just for the sake of it. The more technology we have doing things for us, the less we ahve to learn to do ourselves. Spelling and grammar, and even handwriting, are becoming casualties of that "progress". Much as I love technology.

[Tonsilitis]

The survey concluded that literacy and numeracy skills in 16-25 year olds was poorer than in the over 50s, the implication being that educational standards have slipped over the years. I wonder if numeracy was measured without access to calculators? It seems to me that many young people can't do relatively simple mental arithmetic but maybe that's considered no longer necessary due to the universal availability of calculators?

 

With regard to spelling and grammar, I can't think of an equivalent excuse. A good command of basic English is a necessity for most jobs other than the most menial and seriously handicaps those without it in the jobs market.

 

Finally, the study showed a strong correlation between the economic performance of countries and it's educational standards. Koreans, as an example, we're miles better than us in most measures. Does discipline at school have an impact on this?

 

For those who have joked about it on this thread, there is a serious issue here and it's catching up with us as a society!

[shaddypeekey]

The survey concluded that literacy and numeracy skills in 16-25 year olds was poorer than in the over 50s, the implication being that educational standards have slipped over the years. I wonder if numeracy was measured without access to calculators? It seems to me that many young people can't do relatively simple mental arithmetic but maybe that's considered no longer necessary due to the universal availability of calculators?

 

With regard to spelling and grammar, I can't think of an equivalent excuse. A good command of basic English is a necessity for most jobs other than the most menial and seriously handicaps those without it in the jobs market.

 

Finally, the study showed a strong correlation between the economic performance of countries and it's educational standards. Koreans, as an example, we're miles better than us in most measures. Does discipline at school have an impact on this?

 

For those who have joked about it on this thread, there is a serious issue here and it's catching up with us as a society!

I agree. When I receive reports from the younger lads at work, half of the time the English is mediocre, verging on bad. This is from intelligent and proficient people.

[Tom_McB]

The survey concluded that literacy and numeracy skills in 16-25 year olds was poorer than in the over 50s, the implication being that educational standards have slipped over the years. I wonder if numeracy was measured without access to calculators? It seems to me that many young people can't do relatively simple mental arithmetic but maybe that's considered no longer necessary due to the universal availability of calculators?

 

With regard to spelling and grammar, I can't think of an equivalent excuse. A good command of basic English is a necessity for most jobs other than the most menial and seriously handicaps those without it in the jobs market.

 

Finally, the study showed a strong correlation between the economic performance of countries and it's educational standards. Koreans, as an example, we're miles better than us in most measures. Does discipline at school have an impact on this?

 

For those who have joked about it on this thread, there is a serious issue here and it's catching up with us as a society!

 

The two mistakes are in jest I hope.

 

[ThornTON]

Many of us. Some of us can even spell, and have a reasonable grasp of grammar. The problem is that spelling and grammar are pretty much ignored in schools nowadays. One reason is that there are subjects now that didn't even exist 20, 30, 40 years ago. another reason is that many people never read books - if you don't read, how are you going to learn?

 

Technology is to some extent replacing the need to remember things - spellcheckers can correct some errors but they don't recognise context (your v You're, their v there). Technology often seems to have got out of hand - some cars now have devices to shake your seat if you move out of your lane without indicating - is that really a good thing? Technology just for the sake of it. The more technology we have doing things for us, the less we ahve to learn to do ourselves. Spelling and grammar, and even handwriting, are becoming casualties of that "progress". Much as I love technology.

There are several spelling, grammar and syntax mistakes in the above post; people in glass houses shouldn't throw stones.

 

We can't judge the modern students by our own standards. These days an apprenticeship in a trade is a far more efficient way of getting on the job ladder than going through the higher education system. I'm 29, have three degrees and have had to move to another country to get a job. The world is changing; literacy and numeracy are now less important than practical skills.

[Tom_McB]

To a serious reply to a serious question.

 

1. The Pisa reports are a pile of s***, they are about as accurate a a pupil's assessment of his/her progress.

 

2. The hilariously entitled "Curriculum for excellence" much boosted by the Scottish government is neither a curriculum nor designed for excellence. For those who think that is a right wing view I proffer the thoughts of Prof Lindsay Paterson who is very much to the left in educational and societal issues.

 

Clicky

 

 

3. Standards of attainment vary enormously from school to school, partly this is down to deprivation in communities served by the school but ethos and other factors come into play. The Scottish govt has figures for indicators of multiple deprivation, the "Scottish index for multiple deprivation" , SIMD, Clicky 2.

These figures are available to teachers and others and show that whilst there is indeed a link between attainment and multiple deprivation schools with similar SIMD scores can have very different levels of attainment. Needless to say these figures are not available to Joe Public

[Tonsilitis]

The two mistakes are in jest I hope.

Yes - two minor errors in a post I should have taken care contained none as I should have counted on the grammar police paying particular attention to it. Mea Culpa especially in relation the errant "it's". I did spot the "we're" on re-reading and I will claim that as a typo.

 

In my day I could have qualified for some corporal punishment for that!

[Tonsilitis]

There are several spelling, grammar and syntax mistakes in the above post; people in glass houses shouldn't throw stones.

 

We can't judge the modern students by our own standards. These days an apprenticeship in a trade is a far more efficient way of getting on the job ladder than going through the higher education system. I'm 29, have three degrees and have had to move to another country Carlisle to get a job. The world is changing; literacy and numeracy are now less important than practical skills.

 

Fixed that for you!

 

As for practical skills overtaking literacy and numeracy, I think that is a fallacy. What valuable practical skills will get you a job on their own without the need for literacy and/or numeracy as well? Pop star maybe?

[Cet Homme Charmant]

I work with people of many different nationalities for whom English is their second or even third language and to a man and woman their written English is invariably flawless, or at worst very close to flawless. Sometimes the sentence structure can sound a bit unconventional to the native ear (e.g., native Dutch speakers will often tend to say 'the pencil of John' rather than 'John's pencil'), but I'd say they’re more grammatical 'quirks' than actual errors (I don't think 'the pencil of John' is grammatically incorrect, is it? ). But unlike many native speakers they seem to have absolutely no problem differentiating between 'there', 'their' and 'they're', 'to' and 'too', 'its' and 'it’s', 'lose' and 'loose', etc. And they know how to use the possessive apostrophe correctly! Both my kids learned English grammar and spelling in French language schools as a second language, and they don’t make any of the basic grammatical errors described above either. It's actually quite embarrassing at times that their level of English is superior to many native speakers (and I include myself in that, my spelling is atrocious, ha! ).

 

So based on personal experience I’d say that language education in the UK, both in English and foreign languages, is pretty poor to say the least.

[ThornTON]

Fixed that for you!

 

As for practical skills overtaking literacy and numeracy, I think that is a fallacy. What valuable practical skills will get you a job on their own without the need for literacy and/or numeracy as well? Pop star maybe?

No you didn't, I'm doing a Scottish qualification in a foreign country as the law is totally different and the Chartered Institute of that country will not accredit my degree as it is based on Scots Law.

[Cet Homme Charmant]

These figures are available to teachers and others and show that whilst there is indeed a link between attainment and multiple deprivation schools with similar SIMD scores can have very different levels of attainment.

Is it only me who's struggling to understand that sentence?

 

Did you mean to say...?

 

These figures are available to teachers and others and show that whilst there is indeed a link between attainment and deprivation, multiple deprivation schools with similar SIMD scores can have very different levels of attainment.

 

If so, I don't think the fact that the figures suggest some schools are better others will surprise or shock anyone. I guess it's simply down to the calibre of the teachers and management in each school that determines how well it performs, relative to the SIMD score of the catchment area.

[shaddypeekey]

There are several spelling, grammar and syntax mistakes in the above post; people in glass houses shouldn't throw stones.

 

We can't judge the modern students by our own standards. These days an apprenticeship in a trade is a far more efficient way of getting on the job ladder than going through the higher education system. I'm 29, have three degrees and have had to move to another country to get a job. The world is changing; literacy and numeracy are now less important than practical skills.

 

That isn't a new concept. The mantra of "Education, Education, Education" doesn't ring true, and never has. Notwithstanding, in order to comlpete an apprenticeship or vocational training, you must still have a good level of numeracy and literacy. Practical skills have always been more important, if not, we'd still be living in caves, like Toby.