The Rc Church

[The greenock guvnor]

totally not true. the only positions in a catholic school that require a catholic from memory are guidance teachers(6 or so), head of science, head teacher and maybe RE teachers but not to sure on them so probably less than 10% there.

 

do you feel foolish now that you put a silly little fact at the end of your statement now

 

 

No Why should i feel foolish. The Catholic Church should be questioned about it. This as i have already stated does not happen in a non denominational schools. Fact. Why is pointing that out foolish. It as you rightly stated and I also stated positions of power and influence that a non catholic can not take. And your conclusion would be then that its only a tiny minority of jobs. Yes but it is the real powerful jobs. Lets get the whitewash brushes out again. It should not happen.

What is the reason for it? Please somebody could they enlighten me on that point. Are you not embarrased trying to defend such a system.

[The greenock guvnor]

sorry but to be frank for a minute instead of chris, your talking nonsense. i attendend 3 different catholic schools in my upbringing. never once were we told proddies are bad dont hang about with them or any garbage like that you would like to fabricate for the sake of your arguement. in terms of religous education in catholic schools the majority of the core framework does not have a catholic ethos but a christian one - rather fitting with this being a majority christian country. catholic schools exist because the parents wish their children to be educated in a catholic ethos and i believe canon law dictates there must be a catholic school provided if the parents wish so?

 

You could open this arguement up to the reformation etc with the view of it was the catholic church that brought schooling to this country and why should we cease to have this due to the views of reformists but as that arguement is now 500 odd year old i dont think it will be won on here.

 

on another note i think the the original post has already made a 10+ page thread. the same arguements apply.

 

* Paedophilia exists in every walk of life and every catholic other than those involved ( 99.99999999%) rightly condemn what has happened in ireland

Unfortunately it is the ones who hold the most power in the vatican who advocate the cover ups. This is why the Irish government never tackled it full on. Please do not portray it as a couple of rogue priests here and there.

[leyTON]

Damn you VT!!!

 

Numerous other threads you have nearly had me throwing this thing oot the windy with your obnoxious nonsense and now I find myself whoeheartedly agreeing with you.

 

To blame the Catholic Schools for all sectarian problems is far too simplistic and short sighted.

The reason that many Irish immigrants moved to this part of Scotland was to escape being socially, economically, culturally and politically second class citizens in their home land. Once they arrive, they experience the exact same, in many ways worse. In many cases, the RC Church was their local community. Whether one agrees with the schools or not, is not the issue here.

 

The issue is that of state cover up of paedophiles. Diarmid Martin seemed extremely contrite on the issue today.

It is about the Catholic Church now acknowledging the horrors that took place in the past. It is about the Pope visiting ireland and acknowledging the horrors.

correct, although it doesnt contribute markedly to the problem, it is no means the solution, although i wouldnt close catholic schools, the often vociferous defence (manly from slammed greenockian doors "you from the snp, theyl shut cafflick schools) suggests that current RE and citinzeship education leaves nothing to be desired, simply not the case. personally, i find the current catholic religious curriculum to be riddled with factual innacuracies and emotional blackmail, but thats my opinion

 

sorry but to be frank for a minute instead of chris, your talking nonsense. i attendend 3 different catholic schools in my upbringing. never once were we told proddies are bad dont hang about with them or any garbage like that you would like to fabricate for the sake of your arguement. in terms of religous education in catholic schools the majority of the core framework does not have a catholic ethos but a christian one - rather fitting with this being a majority christian country. catholic schools exist because the parents wish their children to be educated in a catholic ethos and i believe canon law dictates there must be a catholic school provided if the parents wish so?

 

You could open this arguement up to the reformation etc with the view of it was the catholic church that brought schooling to this country and why should we cease to have this due to the views of reformists but as that arguement is now 500 odd year old i dont think it will be won on here.

 

on another note i think the the original post has already made a 10+ page thread. the same arguements apply.

 

* Paedophilia exists in every walk of life and every catholic other than those involved ( 99.99999999%) rightly condemn what has happened in ireland

on the * point chris, certian laws in ireland (abortion for example) suggests an unhealthy lack of division between church and state

[The greenock guvnor]

i would imagine any nun who teaches in a school most likely attained a degree and then done a post gradute in primary education and taught in a primary school, dont think i am aware of any nuns that have taught in high schools but wouldnt see a problem as they would be properly trained

Still waiting for an answer on why a non catholic can not hold a position of power in a catholic school eg Headmaster.

You see no problem with that as I would or Buddhist monks or Jehovh witnesses etc if that was all these religous leaders taught especially at primary school level.

[prawn_ton]

we can't complain about rangers and celtic fans beating each other up in Romania or Seville or whereever when we seperate them at the age of 5. It makes them think they are different and want to lash out and kill each other.

Get the priests out the classrooms and start promoting multi-culture, rangers and celtic (and morton) fans together in the same classrooms

[prawn_ton]

Still waiting for an answer on why a non catholic can not hold a position of power in a catholic school eg Headmaster.

You see no problem with that as I would or Buddhist monks or Jehovh witnesses etc if that was all these religous leaders taught especially at primary school level.

 

A non catholic head teacher might not know the words to the prayers ect. It makes sense to have someone who has been raised in the faith to promote the faith and ethos of the school.

[The greenock guvnor]

A non catholic head teacher might not know the words to the prayers ect. It makes sense to have someone who has been raised in the faith to promote the faith and ethos of the school.

 

 

It is not just headmasters that do not get promoted but at least it was an attempt rather than ignoring it. Makes no sense whatsever(Well it does because these positions invariably lead to the promotion of Roman Catholic views on situations in life.

It is sectarian not to give a person promotion from a non catholic background and that faith. The churches rules forbids it to be otherwise. It should certainly not be state funded. No other job state funded does this. There would be an out cry.

 

[Guest David Edwards]

Pity that you spoiled a piece with lots of good points by confusing choice and apartheid.

 

I think the argument is about fairness rather than choice. Choice after all, is limited by factors like social and financial status. Perhaps we'd all choose to send our weans to Hutchie or St Aloysius, but many of us can't afford 'the choice'. To be fair to all we would have to extend state funded education to all faiths and beliefs.

 

What price state funded muslim, sikh, hindu, marxist-leninist, even satanist schools? Fair maybe, but certainly not practical. Surely the fairest, most inclusive and practical way to educate our children would be to remove faith from the curriculum altogether. Faith can be taught in homes and temples but not in state funded schools.

 

Of course I accept that catholic schools did not and do not cause sectarianism, rather they came into being because of it. And we all should recognise Scotland's shameful history of discrimination against its catholic citizens. But that's the past, isn't it time for us all to move on together, by consensus? I think so.

 

 

[Dougie]

Ah, the monthly attack on catholic schools/church strikes moronunofficial again!!! Honestly boys get a grip, catholic schools are here to stay for a long time to come and no ammount of moaning from a bunch of sexually frustrated Morton fans aint going to resolve it!

 

Talk to you all again next month, when the exact same subject is brought up and debated again!

 

They just wish that they were Roman Catholics...............

[Guest David Edwards]

Ah, the monthly attack on catholic schools/church strikes moronunofficial again!!! Honestly boys get a grip, catholic schools are here to stay for a long time to come and no ammount of moaning from a bunch of sexually frustrated Morton fans aint going to resolve it!

 

Talk to you all again next month, when the exact same subject is brought up and debated again!

 

They just wish that they were Roman Catholics...............

[Alibi]

Lets cut half the point out so it doesn't exist. Teachers at Roman Catholic schools can not be of other faiths and receive promotion. Fact.

 

It's not just that non-catholic teachers can't get promotion (actually they can in exceptional circumstances where they can't find a catholic to get the job, except in religious/moral education posts where the ban applies totally). My now wife was turned down for a post at a local catholic school (she is a catholic) because she was living with me and we weren't married at the time. Quite apart from the intrusiveness of prying into people's personal circumstances (in interviews, normal employers are not allowed to ask such questions or even ask about an applicant's religion), the whole manner in which a local priest highhandedly dismissed the application and declared the candidate unsuitable smacked of fascism. He phoned up the house and I answered - I left him in no doubt where he could stick his post, his school, his religion and generally gave him a verbal doing about his perverted life and career based on fairy tales. Recently my wife was approached to take a post at the same school and she basically told them to feck off. The irony was that the first time round they couldn't find a catholic for the post and ended up with a non-catholic, at which many of the catholic parents, a particularly narrow minded bunch in this area according to Mrs Alibi, were vociferous in their complaints - letters to the local papers etc.

 

The recruitment policies for catholic schools are blatantly discriminatory, and that discrimination is actually permitted by the law. I wrote to the Director of Education and suggested that they should remove all references on their adverts to being an equal opportunities employer as clearly they weren't - he was of course unwilling to go turn that particular stone over.

 

Religion is a crutch for those who are scared of the dark. Education should be totally secular. If parents want to educate their children in 2faith" schools, they should do it privately and not expect the taxpayer to fund it. Let's try that and watch religious segregation wither on the vine.

[maccaboy]

It's not just that non-catholic teachers can't get promotion (actually they can in exceptional circumstances where they can't find a catholic to get the job, except in religious/moral education posts where the ban applies totally). My now wife was turned down for a post at a local catholic school (she is a catholic) because she was living with me and we weren't married at the time. Quite apart from the intrusiveness of prying into people's personal circumstances (in interviews, normal employers are not allowed to ask such questions or even ask about an applicant's religion), the whole manner in which a local priest highhandedly dismissed the application and declared the candidate unsuitable smacked of fascism. He phoned up the house and I answered - I left him in no doubt where he could stick his post, his school, his religion and generally gave him a verbal doing about his perverted life and career based on fairy tales. Recently my wife was approached to take a post at the same school and she basically told them to feck off. The irony was that the first time round they couldn't find a catholic for the post and ended up with a non-catholic, at which many of the catholic parents, a particularly narrow minded bunch in this area according to Mrs Alibi, were vociferous in their complaints - letters to the local papers etc.

 

The recruitment policies for catholic schools are blatantly discriminatory, and that discrimination is actually permitted by the law. I wrote to the Director of Education and suggested that they should remove all references on their adverts to being an equal opportunities employer as clearly they weren't - he was of course unwilling to go turn that particular stone over.

 

Religion is a crutch for those who are scared of the dark. Education should be totally secular. If parents want to educate their children in 2faith" schools, they should do it privately and not expect the taxpayer to fund it. Let's try that and watch religious segregation wither on the vine.

 

An excellent post - although, re your last line, even with movement to secular and integrated schools I fear it would take many years to have a major effect on bigotry.

 

And you're right about the "religious fascism" aspect in RC schools - a colleague of mine has been all but living with a woman for seven years now, but they have to keep quiet about it. Neither has been married before, and they want to marry and have wanted to for a few years, but they don't dare - because he isn't Catholic and she is headmistress of a Catholic school, and even though he is a practising Christian she fears the backlash from the authorities and the Church and thinks she could eventually be forced out of her post. These are not feelings of paranoia on her part as she has been witness to similar situations in the last 20 years or so, most recently twice in the last six years.

 

Interestingly, she has few worries about the reaction of parents to her choice of partner; it's the power of the religious "Taleban" that she fears.

 

Whether you are for or against organised religion it's shocking that in this day and age two perfectly decent and morally sound people feel that the religion of a chosen partner can have such repercussions for them, and even more shocking that they feel they can't marry or even be open about spending the night together.

 

As to the "moral turpitude" argument against her marrying a non-Catholic - presumably this is to "protect" her pupils from some percieved contamination of their education. Which is worse for them, though - to see their head of school married to a fellow Christian, or to maybe become aware that she is living out of wedlock with someone - because she is afraid of the reaction of the Church if she marries?

 

Can you imagine the uproar if he was coloured rather than non-Catholic? Mind you, given what has emerged in the last couple of days he could probably get by if he was Catholic and a kiddie-fiddler....... <_>

 

This post, incidentally, is not a sign of an anti-Catholic bias on my part as there is none; I'd be just as critical of the Church of Scotland or the Wee Frees or anyone else whose doctrines were as illogical and oppressive and stopped people from doing what, for them, is right without any detrimental effect on others. I don't think separate Catholic schools are good for society in general, I think they cause more problems than they solve, but to force two good people to effectively hide their relationship (and, as the church would have it, "live in sin" rather than marry) is disgraceful. I do not see how such a situation can be defended by anyone - though probably someone will try.....

 

 

[Honor Todd]

Does this ethos mean that one must sport a green and grey top everyday to the Oak Mall ?

 

In all serious do those who have had the good fortune to receive a RC based education believe that it is superior to that of a non-denominational based education system?

Given the ethos and values provided did it produce a higher proportion of law-abiding citizens?

Did you witness any correlation to the influences of the home environment and sectarianism? Did the school put in place any preventative measures that stretched to the home? Were they successful?

 

Inverclyde and East Dumbartonshire are two most of the deprived areas in Scotland. Maybe it is just a coincidence that both areas have a high proportion of “practising” RCs. Does this demonstrate that the teaching standards are sacrificed in order that the ethos of the schools are maintained? Or maybe sectarianism is still rife in the work place and people are still being discriminated against. (Absolutely, shameful if any employer discriminates…a bit of an irony in that statement, even if it is only 10% of the workforce!) Both arguments seem ridiculous.

 

The cachment area more often than not dictates a good education. However, someone recently posted the study in the US (I think it was Carolina) where academic attainment was increased across the board. The traditional catchment areas were abolished and a certain % of kids from each area had to go to different schools. Thus, you had kids from wealthy areas travelling to schools in poorer areas and vice versa. I can see how a RC based school is probably better placed or possibly already working to this model (St A’s being the notable exception). Unfortunately, there are parents who will move their kids to better areas for schooling (you know who you are ) even though they bang on about wanting a fairer, forward thinking Scotland. We need to start looking at the bigger picture, as Scotland is slipping down the academic table. Unfortunately, it probably will not happen, as the impact on house prices, etc. would have the curtain twitchers foaming at the mouth .

 

 

PS CentralTon mentioned that his son is a Morton supporter (poor barsteward, he doesn’t even have the excuse of being from Inverclyde! ) and that his 10 best friends are, in no particular order,

 

2 - Partick fans,

2 - Rangers fans,

1 - Everton fan,

3 - Falkirk fans,

2 - Celtic fans.

 

I find it sad that this is possibly suggesting that this is not the norm for someone attending a faith school…

 

[Davie McArthur]

PS CentralTon mentioned that his son is a Morton supporter (poor barsteward, he doesn’t even have the excuse of being from Inverclyde! ) and that his 10 best friends are, in no particular order,

 

2 - Partick fans,

2 - Rangers fans,

1 - Everton fan,

3 - Falkirk fans,

2 - Celtic fans.

 

I find it sad that this is possibly suggesting that this is not the norm for someone attending a faith school…

 

He is and you clearly didn't read his post.

[centralTON]

PS CentralTon mentioned that his son is a Morton supporter (poor barsteward, he doesn’t even have the excuse of being from Inverclyde! ) and that his 10 best friends are, in no particular order,

 

2 - Partick fans,

2 - Rangers fans,

1 - Everton fan,

3 - Falkirk fans,

2 - Celtic fans.

 

I find it sad that this is possibly suggesting that this is not the norm for someone attending a faith school…

 

Unfortunately, that may well be the case.

[leyTON]

Does this ethos mean that one must sport a green and grey top everyday to the Oak Mall ?

 

In all serious do those who have had the good fortune to receive a RC based education believe that it is superior to that of a non-denominational based education system?

Given the ethos and values provided did it produce a higher proportion of law-abiding citizens?

Did you witness any correlation to the influences of the home environment and sectarianism? Did the school put in place any preventative measures that stretched to the home? Were they successful?

 

Inverclyde and East Dumbartonshire are two most of the deprived areas in Scotland. Maybe it is just a coincidence that both areas have a high proportion of “practising” RCs. Does this demonstrate that the teaching standards are sacrificed in order that the ethos of the schools are maintained? Or maybe sectarianism is still rife in the work place and people are still being discriminated against. (Absolutely, shameful if any employer discriminates…a bit of an irony in that statement, even if it is only 10% of the workforce!) Both arguments seem ridiculous.

 

The cachment area more often than not dictates a good education. However, someone recently posted the study in the US (I think it was Carolina) where academic attainment was increased across the board. The traditional catchment areas were abolished and a certain % of kids from each area had to go to different schools. Thus, you had kids from wealthy areas travelling to schools in poorer areas and vice versa. I can see how a RC based school is probably better placed or possibly already working to this model (St A’s being the notable exception). Unfortunately, there are parents who will move their kids to better areas for schooling (you know who you are ) even though they bang on about wanting a fairer, forward thinking Scotland. We need to start looking at the bigger picture, as Scotland is slipping down the academic table. Unfortunately, it probably will not happen, as the impact on house prices, etc. would have the curtain twitchers foaming at the mouth .

PS CentralTon mentioned that his son is a Morton supporter (poor barsteward, he doesn’t even have the excuse of being from Inverclyde! ) and that his 10 best friends are, in no particular order,

 

2 - Partick fans,

2 - Rangers fans,

1 - Everton fan,

3 - Falkirk fans,

2 - Celtic fans.

 

I find it sad that this is possibly suggesting that this is not the norm for someone attending a faith school…

for me that is a much bigger issue than religious education, we should be focussing on that. iain fraser, recently deposed education guy from the cooncil tried to change it, but reckoned without the tele and the various backward parents groups. he was basically sacked for trying to balane the unbalanced schools (how the academy is over subscribed when it hsa one cathcment school remains a mystery to me)

[vikingTON]

1. In 1872 there was non demonational schools however the catholic church decided to maintain catholic schools. The obvious gap between the religions and their education(lack of) in 1918 was to bring society together but unlike England the state pays for these schools. The catholics were a minority then but are far, far greater in numbers now and this influences the politicians to not vote out Roman Catholic State funded schools.

 

Erm no, the number of practicing Catholics has decline by 20% in the past decade alone. Catholics do not constitute a major vote within the UK Parliament at which the 1918 Act could be repealed. This is very simple maths and I'm amazed that you either can't or refuse to comprehend it.

 

2.Yes it is ? And more fool you if you think not. The Catholic church dominates Ireland and that includes politics. Did the Catholic church have specific policies to cover up such scandal and to therfore maintain its image and power. Yes they did.

What has that got to do with your crusade against Catholic schooling in Scotland? Relevance? None.

 

3. Never mentioned priests but nuns do? Why? a large percentage are nuns ? I suggest you should have come and join a non denomenantional school if that is your conclusion.

 

You ought to brush up on your Catholic school knowledge as I cannot think of a single time when I've ever witnessed a nun in a Catholic school let alone teach a subject. But then knowing the facts wouldn't suit your agenda, so we dismiss and make up instead.

 

4. Never said he was a historian at all. Do not be confused because there other people apart from Tom Devine with views on the subject of religous issues and education. Why did you come to that conclusion? All I said was I was sticking with Kant and friends. The BIG clue was in that answer. Did you not read to the end. Maybe it was your schooling that effects your obvious attempt at argument of a defence of the indefensible.

I suggest you take your amatuerish attempts at a debate by quoting other people away and stop making presumptions as concluding facts which frankly are a lot of pish. It is embarrasing. I see you still are not answering the real big questions. The answers are still there. Avoid them at all costs seems to be your view or cut out the major points produced in opposition to your views on how to make answers incorrect or irrelevant. Get out the whitewash brush.

 

Tom Devine is at the forefront of balanced historical assessment of the Catholic schools issue. Kant is at the back of the queue, and is frankly irrelevant to the topic at hand.

If you keep spouting incorrect 'facts' and irrelevant writers then your argument won't be treated as an equal to the fact-based ones.

 

The Enlightenment and the threat to the catholic church was in force in the whole of Europe in the time you mention of "the riots" who were actually taking the power away from the Vatican. That is how there were anti catholic riots as you call it or was it the power struggle to stand up for a far more democratic civilised and humane society?

Tom Devine does not talk about that at all. Why not ?

 

Tom Devine's book The Scottish Nation 1700-2007 has several chapters on the Enlightenment from root cause and ideas to application.

As Tom Devine is not a mentalist he does not treat the anti-Catholic riots of 1779 as in any way part of the Enlightenment. The week of riots in Glasgow and Edinburgh were against the prospect of Catholic toleration: all 5,000 of them in the entire nation. It was of the typical unbridled bigotry that distilled within the Scottish Presbyterian mindset until at least after the Second World War, and was fundamentally an anti-Enlightenment sentiment.

 

I take it you have no answer to the point made then which is fact that you can not be of another religion and teach religous education or hold a position of power in a Roman Catholic School. No such situation happens in non denominational schools.

So you just spout a pile of pish talk to evade the facts that it is a sectarian policy.

 

You are that mentalist who keeps trying to get a civil partnership to break imaginary discrimination aren't you?

 

we can't complain about rangers and celtic fans beating each other up in Romania or Seville or whereever when we seperate them at the age of 5. It makes them think they are different and want to lash out and kill each other.

Get the priests out the classrooms and start promoting multi-culture, rangers and celtic (and morton) fans together in the same classrooms

 

Right... I'd better go and find all those Rangers fans in Catholic schools and put them back in the cage where they belong.

[vikingTON]

Inverclyde and East Dumbartonshire are two most of the deprived areas in Scotland. Maybe it is just a coincidence that both areas have a high proportion of “practising” RCs. Does this demonstrate that the teaching standards are sacrificed in order that the ethos of the schools are maintained? Or maybe sectarianism is still rife in the work place and people are still being discriminated against. (Absolutely, shameful if any employer discriminates…a bit of an irony in that statement, even if it is only 10% of the workforce!) Both arguments seem ridiculous.

 

Not really, it has much to do with the discrimination against the Catholic community for decades. Wealth and access to higher education is more enhanced in wealthy and higher-educated families. Catholics were not given equal access to wealth opportunities up the family line so the non-discriminated community has had in effect a head-start until this generation.

 

But still, nice attempt at sqauring the circle.

[Honor Todd]

He is and you clearly didn't read his post.

 

Incidentally, I attended a meeting in the Village, in Greater Castlemilk, yesterday. It really is a soulless place…

[Honor Todd]

Not really, it has much to do with the discrimination against the Catholic community for decades. Wealth and access to higher education is more enhanced in wealthy and higher-educated families. Catholics were not given equal access to wealth opportunities up the family line so the non-discriminated community has had in effect a head-start until this generation.

 

But still, nice attempt at sqauring the circle.

 

It must be right cnut to watch all these big flashy, proddie types driving about in their Merc's . Get over yourself son and try and look forward. This poor attempt at hanging onto the past is wearisome. Also, learn to read to the end of the paragraph .