Should We Be Considering A Move From Cappielow

[9 Strathblane Crescent]

Article in The Courier about Dundee moving to a new stadium due to the cost associated with the upkeep of Dens Park.  Do we have the same problem and should we be considering a move to a new purpose built stadium or is the £200k a smokescreen to divert attention from their £500k loss?

 

https://www.thecourier.co.uk/fp/sport/football/dundee-fc/378762/dundee-fc-press-plans-leave-dens-park/?utm_content=buffer2074b&utm_medium=social&utm_source=facebook.com&utm_campaign=buffer

 

 

Dundee Football Club are pushing on with plans for a new stadium, as the cost of renting and maintaining Dens Park bites deeper and deeper.

The Dark Blues have posted an operating loss of over £500,000 for the last financial year, with £200,000 of that being needed for the upkeep of their ground.

Dundee budgeted to make the top six in the Premiership last season, but failure to do so has also impacted on their profitability (by another £200,000).

Managing Director John Nelms has revealed that he and owner Tim Keyes are stepping up their plans to relocate to a site near Camperdown Park, with a land-use application soon to be submitted.

He has also told supporters that they haven’t given up the idea of playing a game in America.

On the £530,000 financial loss for the year ending May 31, 2016, Nelms said: “We released the accounts today. They’re not great but they’re nothing to worry about.

“Football Partners Scotland funds any losses – we’ve said that from the get-go.

“The biggest issue we have is the stadium itself. We have put over £200,000 into the ground. That’s not enhancing the ground. That’s just keeping it going.

“These issues are going to get worse and worse as time goes on.

“The other issue is we always budget for top six and we spent money as a top six club. Unfortunately we ended up in eighth position last year.

“We understand those risks and we’re happy with those risks.

“On a positive note – even though it might not sound positive when you say we’ve lost £530,000 – we can say for the first time in a long time staff (mostly admin staff) have received raises and we’re quite proud of that. It’s well-deserved and long-overdue.”

On the prospect of a new stadium, Nelms said: “We’re aware we’re trying to give a 21^st century entertainment product in a 19^th century building.

 

“It’s not new news that Tim and I have bought 29 acres near the ice rink at Camperdown Park.

“We will be putting in a land-use application shortly that we hope really enhances Dundee Football Club – not only its day to day inner-workings but the type of event we can put on for Dundee Football Club. We think that’s the future of Dundee Football Club.

“We’re quite excited about it. It’s early doors. I’m not going to talk about it until we get to certain levels. We’ve got a lot of hoops to jump through and a lot of politics to get through. But I can tell you we’ve been working on this for the last year – even before we purchased the property.

“The city council has been fantastic. We all see it being a good thing for the city.

“We have been trying to future-proof as much as possible any facility we put on that site and make it exciting and work 24 hours a day, seven days a week and be a jewel for the City of Discovery and Dundee.

“I will give updates when appropriate.

“Moving forward, we think we’re going to have exciting times ahead where we’re potentially playing games overseas; we’re playing games potentially in a new facility; training in potentially a new facility. That’s where we’re headed.”

On the American match, which Dundee had hoped to set up this season, Nelms said: “It’s something we’re still working on but there are some political issues.

“There are no parameters or timelines to political issues. We’ve made a little headway recently.

“We’ll continue to work on these things

“I think they’ll be very beneficial and very exciting for Dundee Football Club.”

The turnover for the year was maintained at approximately £4 million.

Giving more details on the operating loss, a club statement read: “The timing of televised games and poor weather also impacted receipts from our high profile games. This came on top of a significant decrease in the number of category A matches at Dens compared to the previous season.

“Club wages show an increase of £175k over last year. Part of the increase being the result of pay rises to administration and support staff within the club, the first such rises for a number of years.

“The cost of maintaining Dens Park continues to increase with every passing year. The maintenance bill rose by £50k to £200k in the financial year. This expenditure is likely to continue at this level and increase as the stadium ages.”

The statement added: “Prior to the club exiting administration, the lease over Dens Park was renegotiated. As a result of this renegotiation, escalations to the annual rent were agreed, starting from May 2016.

“Also, due to changes in accounting rules, introduced in the current year,  the rent payable in total over the life of the lease is required to be spread evenly over each of its 25 year term. This means the effect of future predetermined rent increases for remaining term of the lease will be reflected for the period of the lease, which has expired up to May 31 2016. The effect of these accounting changes will require an additional £500k having to be provided in the 2017 accounts.

“Finally, the directors would like to thank all the stakeholders at the club, including supporters and staff, whose contributions are vital for the long term success of the club.”

[cmdc]

We do have a broadly similar problem - the upkeep of Cappielow is hugely and increasingly expensive. I think this is the single most important factor in improving our financial position.

[EBu]

Should there maybe be a feasibility study of some sort done on Cappielow...

[Specto]

Rather than build a new stadium, is it not more cost effective to refurbishment Cappielow stand by stand to eventually have a 'new' stadium? The same idea as what they've done at Celtic park and are planning on doing.

 

For example, break the cost down to specific area's within the site and begin by refurbishing them first to bring the cost down. This would also allow the club to redevelop the site too, creating new facilities such as meeting rooms that can be hired out similar to Aves Business Centre.

[Malt]

We can't afford to build four new stands at Cappielow. That's millions of pounds.

 

The club could only have four new stands by selling cappielow and using the money made to relocate and build a new stadium.

 

Persoanlly, would be in favour of either option but the club should not go into to debt for it and if it means leaving cappielow then choice we need to make. Our ground should have been developed decades ago.

[Specto]

We can't afford to build four new stands at Cappielow. That's millions of pounds.

 

The club could only have four new stands by selling cappielow and using the money made to relocate and build a new stadium.

 

Persoanlly, would be in favour of either option but the club should not go into to debt for it and if it means leaving cappielow then choice we need to make. Our ground should have been developed decades ago.

 

That is why I said break it down and start doing the most expensive ones first, surely not every stand at Cappielow is draining the bank?

[TheGoon]

Are Inverclyde council still skint?

[shagster]

Are Inverclyde council still skint?

 

Interesting question. Unfortunately, the people in charge at present only have eyes for the hoops of a green and white persuasion.

[Pedrodelawasp]

The most financially sound move would likely be to move in to a new ground along the lines of New Douglas Park with office and function space available to rent out. Perhaps as part of a community Sport/Leisure complex if the Council and/or private developers were also involved.

 

Redeveloping Cappielow would be problematic and likely very expensive. There is not enough room on the main stand side to build anything substantial and Sinclair Street seriously compromises the possibility of building at that end, bar an elaborate and expensive cantilever design. While there's probably room enough at the Wee Dublin End and at the Cowshed to build reasonable stands I doubt there's enough room to have these as well as office/function space to enable the club to make some cash to cover the development costs.

 

Would be quite gutting to move from the tradition and atmosphere of Cappielow for a generic shoebox, mind you.

 

How about the Greenock resident that won the lotto - is he a 'Ton fan? Could tap him for some cash.

 

P.S. If Arnold Clark and The Norseman were to shift the park could be rotated 90 degrees and we could have a tidy wee park in that space. Also expensive...

[TheGoon]

The most financially sound move would likely be to move in to a new ground along the lines of New Douglas Park with office and function space available to rent out. Perhaps as part of a community Sport/Leisure complex if the Council and/or private developers were also involved.

 

Redeveloping Cappielow would be problematic and likely very expensive. There is not enough room on the main stand side to build anything substantial and Sinclair Street seriously compromises the possibility of building at that end, bar an elaborate and expensive cantilever design. While there's probably room enough at the Wee Dublin End and at the Cowshed to build reasonable stands I doubt there's enough room to have these as well as office/function space to enable the club to make some cash to cover the development costs.

 

Would be quite gutting to move from the tradition and atmosphere of Cappielow for a generic shoebox, mind you.

 

How about the Greenock resident that won the lotto - is he a 'Ton fan? Could tap him for some cash.

 

P.S. If Arnold Clark and The Norseman were to shift the park could be rotated 90 degrees and we could have a tidy wee park in that space. Also expensive...

Once Sandy & James are in I'm sure they could convince them to move...

[vikingTON]

Dundee don't own their ground - not even in a vague, 'holding company' sense, which is why their directors are peddling this line to their gormless fanbase. 

 

We do have a broadly similar problem - the upkeep of Cappielow is hugely and increasingly expensive. I think this is the single most important factor in improving our financial position.

 

Given that the club doesn't even run a damp cloth around the main stand over the course of decades and roped in volunteers to do a basic paint job in the past two years, it's really difficult to take the above claim seriously either. 

[vikingTON]

The most financially sound move would likely be to move in to a new ground along the lines of New Douglas Park with office and function space available to rent out. Perhaps as part of a community Sport/Leisure complex if the Council and/or private developers were also involved.

 

Redeveloping Cappielow would be problematic and likely very expensive. There is not enough room on the main stand side to build anything substantial and Sinclair Street seriously compromises the possibility of building at that end, bar an elaborate and expensive cantilever design. While there's probably room enough at the Wee Dublin End and at the Cowshed to build reasonable stands I doubt there's enough room to have these as well as office/function space to enable the club to make some cash to cover the development costs.

 

Would be quite gutting to move from the tradition and atmosphere of Cappielow for a generic shoebox, mind you.

 

How about the Greenock resident that won the lotto - is he a 'Ton fan? Could tap him for some cash.

 

P.S. If Arnold Clark and The Norseman were to shift the park could be rotated 90 degrees and we could have a tidy wee park in that space. Also expensive...

 

The core fanbase is and will in all likelihood remain Morton's most important source of revenue. Removing one of the ten oldest grounds in world football for a shitey Legoland effort will drive them away overnight. 

 

The revenue generated by 'office and function facilities' is entirely contingent on demand for them within the local economy. Inverclyde Council aren't going to move in like the local council did at Hamilton to financially dope their local club; the section of the A8 between Bogston and Cappielow already has lots of purpose-built offices. 

 

Any move away from Cappielow on the spurious grounds that 'well, Hamilton have offices at New Douglas Park' or 'Saint Mirren have a gazebo out the back of their shoebox' would prove to be an unmitigated disaster. 

[TaunTon]

 

Given that the club doesn't even run a damp cloth around the main stand over the course of decades and roped in volunteers to do a basic paint job in the past two years, it's really difficult to take the above claim seriously either. 

 

I have no idea of the cost of upkeep for Cappielow but VT is right that this chestnut gets pulled out regularly with absolutely no attempt at demonstrating how Cappielow is so much more expensive than other clubs. Can someone who makes this claim please provide some evidence.

[cmdc]

Dundee don't own their ground - not even in a vague, 'holding company' sense, which is why their directors are peddling this line to their gormless fanbase. 

 

 

 

Given that the club doesn't even run a damp cloth around the main stand over the course of decades and roped in volunteers to do a basic paint job in the past two years, it's really difficult to take the above claim seriously either.

 

Whether you take it seriously or not, that's the position we're in.

[TheGoon]

I don't want to ever see us leave Cappielow, but I'm realistic enough to accept it's going to happen at sone point. I'd only be able to tolerate one of the Legoland efforts if we put safe standing in though. God knows how much that would cost.

[vikingTON]

Whether you take it seriously or not, that's the position we're in.

 

Once again asserted without providing evidence. 

[GiGi]

The pitch probably costs a fair bit to maintain. What else does though and why would said expense not carry over to a new stadium too?

[GiGi]

I don't want to ever see us leave Cappielow, but I'm realistic enough to accept it's going to happen at sone point. I'd only be able to tolerate one of the Legoland efforts if we put safe standing in though. God knows how much that would cost.

I don't see why it would be a massive cost on top of an existing budget if you're hypothetically starting a new ground from scratch. You don't have to rip out seats if you just don't put any in to begin with.

[IainMorton]

I don't want to ever see us leave Cappielow, but I'm realistic enough to accept it's going to happen at sone point. I'd only be able to tolerate one of the Legoland efforts if we put safe standing in though. God knows how much that would cost.

TBH I'd be happy with an all seater stadium if it was a smaller version on Tynecastle, with the fans right on top of the pitch. Sod having another Falkirk, Hamilton or Livingston though!!

[dunning1874]

Again, it's worth remembering that we can now get into the Premiership without doing a thing to Cappielow. Considering that we can get access to the increased revenue that comes from being in the top flight without having to do anything but ongoing maintenance, is it really going to be cost effective to spend the initial outlay on a brand new stadium? Of course it would be great to be generating revenue 7 days a week as well and we should absolutely look at how we can achieve that, but with the increased prize money at this level and the possibility of promotion without having to build whole new all-seater stands there should be no reason to view Cappielow as condemning us to financial hardship.

 

We're surely heading for our second season of profit in a row this year, Queen of the South and Raith also have older stadiums yet they were able to break even before the vast increase in prize money at this level: why should Cappielow being an old ground which doesn't have 7 day facilities prevent us being stable financially if Palmerston and Starks don't stop QoS and Raith? What's the massive crippling cost in the maintenance of Cappielow that other older stadiums don't have?

 

It's telling that Nelms declines to mention just how much of that £200K annual cost for Dens is on rent, a cost that we obviously don't have to worry about.